High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Gaz. wrote:
The 1985 GSX-R750F was as close as the buying public could get to a Formula TT F1 bike, a series for 'superbikes' from 1949 to 1990 when it ceased due to the success of WSB.

As for how long a safety car could lap for, you're just moving the goalposts but in 2007 the safety car did 19 laps of Fuji in one sitting.

I still don't understand why a Radical or Phil's Exige are dismissed though when it is an apples and apples comparison of machinery designed solely for performance and enjoyment.

Gaz, check the `85 RG 500, as a real race rep, & Eddie Lawson Kawasaki Superbike ( lookalikes) predated GSX-Rs ..

You cannot seriously be claiming that the safety car was lapping Fuji at Moto GP race pace for those 19 laps..
So much for goal posts, that one goes straight over the cross bar- between the uprights - for the penalty points..

& those bike mill powered kit cars may be a form of fun track folly - for those who can't/don't ride, but..
they are hardly a comfortable/safe/usefully practical road car, nor do they offer the realistic traffic advantages of bikes,
- overtaking, lane splitting, parking, garaging & etc..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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John Surtees gives his views on racing both cars & bikes, with success - to the highest level, in both..
- on this site linked below.. scroll down a bit.. for Q & A..

https://grrc.goodwood.com/tag/john-surtees/

He reckons that if had only one last go at it, it would be on the bike..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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bdr529 wrote:
Gaz. wrote:
The 1985 GSX-R750F was as close as the buying public could get to a Formula TT F1 bike, a series for 'superbikes' from 1949 to 1990 when it ceased due to the success of WSB.

As for how long a safety car could lap for, you're just moving the goalposts but in 2007 the safety car did 19 laps of Fuji in one sitting.

I still don't understand why a Radical or Phil's Exige are dismissed though when it is an apples and apples comparison of machinery designed solely for performance and enjoyment.
Actually it was the 1986 GSX R750 R Limited that was the closest to the Formula bikes,
My older brother raced one in 87-88 in Superbike, and the Suzuki GSX-R cup, Great Bike

But Yes Gaz,
you are correct in saying that 85 GSX-R was the first that the general public could get to a race bike for the street
This is what I say is the start of Super bikes as we know them today
This RG 500 data link http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/ ... _rg500.htm - includes..
(in the last paragraphs),
..mention of Kevin Schwantz doing well on debut for Suzuki G.B. riding the road bike RG 500 in TT F1 competition..

& this 1980 British "Superbike" (TT F1) race https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q7ZrLzepSs features..
Randy Mamola on the pukka RG 500 race bike.. taking on Graeme Crosby riding the..
.. factory Suzuki 4-stroke XR 69 - 1000 alternative machine..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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bdr529
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Joined: 08 Apr 2011, 19:49
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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J.A.W. wrote:Actually Suzuki released their RG 500 then too, & it really was a race replica, being a fairly
mechanically close variant of their multiple World Championship winning G.P. bike - built for road use..

By comparison, the GSX-R 750 was a road bike looking for a race series..

& of course bike makers had been selling bikes that were either proper production racers, or stylised
racer-look road machines, for years earlier.. Norton did both, with their PR & JPN Commando types..
I'm well aware of the Gamma, that's 2 of them, along with a Honda NS 400 in front of me #7 RZ350,
the race is over that's why my hand is up, just coming into the pit lane
Image

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Sure.. now you are.. with that erroneous claim corrected.. but yeah, looks like good stuff in the pic,
& I've enjoyed an on track squirt on a road Gamma, they are fun..

Oddly enough - the GSX-R 750 has been in constant series production for 30 years, yet the 750..
..(although it is a good machine).. ..never managed to win a WSBK Championship title..

Much more enjoyable bike to ride than any contemporary 600/4 - IMO, though.. ..that extra 150cc does really work..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

emaren
emaren
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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J.A.W. wrote: Oddly enough - the GSX-R 750 has been in constant series production for 30 years, yet the 750..
..(although it is a good machine).. ..never managed to win a WSBK Championship title..

Much more enjoyable bike to ride than any contemporary 600/4 - IMO, though.. ..that extra 150cc does really work..
If you have not already done so, I highly recommend you blag a serious ride on the Daytona 675.

I had an SRAD 750 for about six years and always adored that bike, it was the perfect mix of everything for me.

However I got to ride a 675 on a track day a couple of years ago and it is not only faster, sweeter handling, more predictable than the old SRAD, it is cheaper and more comfortable too !

CBeck113
CBeck113
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Thread summary: J.A.W. thinks bike are better than cars, uses "facts" like replica GP bikes are sooooo much faster, but then says a Lotus Elise can't be considered to represent the cars...and this is allowed to remain open on a technical forum? Oh my...
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Location: Altair IV.

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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I def' concur with you there Emaren..

I have a real liking for 120`triples, they have a fluid mechanical engine motion to them, & musical sound tone,
..unlike busy/buzzy/monotonous 180`inline 4 mills..




As for C-113, seems you are another who aint read the thread.. this is the 1st time I have written 'Lotus Elise'..
..nor have I previously made any such comparison with 'replica G.P. bikes', so get your 'facts' straight..

( A 200hp Ronax 500 would, naturally, be bound to 'destroy' a dinky wee, girly-car L-E though, true enough)

So if all you can 'contribute' is such overtly fatuous trolling - then kindly do yourself a favour,
& opt out of commenting at all..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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Andres125sx
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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So we´re comparing high perfomance road legal cars vs bikes.... ok but I wonder the reason we´re comparing fastest bikes vs not fastest cars, if we do

N-ring fastest laptimes:

Yamaha R1 7:10

Porsche 918 spyder 6:57
Nissan GT-R Nismo 7:08

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Phil
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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That (modified) Yamaha R1 time of 7:10 is not a representative laptime as it wasn't the full lap. Estimates (by the site that published the time and video itself) are that it would be around 7:24/7:25 minutes, which would put it equal to a ~310bhp/tonne Nissan GT-R. With 4 seats. You could probably get around quicker than 99% bikes on that track with your family inside that car.

Considering how much quicker the R1 (or any other bike) is on every single straight and outright acceleration, if both do the same time; isn't the only logical conclusion that the bike must have been slower in (most) corners and under braking?

But I fear we didn't quite get the point of this topic... I actually stopped reading most posts after "dodging traffic" on public roads and ghostrider references were made. :S
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

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Tim.Wright
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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You need to be careful with Nuerburgring times. You never know what the start and end points are.

E.g.
A complete lap of the Nordschleife is reasonably rare - and its 20.8kmh long.
SportAuto use the complete Nordschleife as a flying lap minus 200m between T13 and nordkehre and is free of traffic
A typical bridge to gantry time is cuts out 1.7km of the Nordschleife, is not a true flying lap and its likely that traffic is involved
Not the engineer at Force India

Miguel
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Andres125sx wrote:So we´re comparing high perfomance road legal cars vs bikes.... ok but I wonder the reason we´re comparing fastest bikes vs not fastest cars, if we do

N-ring fastest laptimes:

Yamaha R1 7:10

Porsche 918 spyder 6:57
Nissan GT-R Nismo 7:08
Again, you should add at least 15 seconds to the motorbike time, because the time was recorded on 19.1 km instead of 20.6 for the cars. But in any case, to be honest, the goalposts of the discussion were moved ages ago, when Radicals or, god bless them, Atoms, couldn't count as road legal cars. Interestingly enough, you can purchase a new Atom for less than £40k. I've never seen one, but I've seen "quite a few" Caterhams in my neighbourhood. Or elises. Or a VX220.

I wasted some time yesterday trying to find out laptimes around Laguna Seca, because Nurburgring is too far to the typical track. I did find a youtube of somebody doing 1m33 on an Ariel Atom 2, but no information on tyres or anything else. From what I read, on track days, the top tier bikers lap between 35's and 45's and the newbie bikers lap in around 2m flat. I did find a piece from cycleworld, where they went to Laguna seca with a former pro rider that had won there before, and he lapped a BMW HP4 and a Ducati Panigale also close to 1m33. It may be possible to find honest comparisons but it's hard for me to see whether all these times have been set with road legal tyres or slicks or what not.

The point about tyres is important. Are comparisons to be done slick vs. slick? Or road legal? Because it seems to me bike tyres are much closer to slicks than what cars mount. But what do I know...

Anyway, [...] what are we to compare? Quarter mile? 0-100-0? Laptime around my neighbourhood? From Key Canaveral to the Moon? And then there have been some incendiary posts. I can't believe this thread is still open, and that I'm silly enough to reply again. Still, I'll make one more point:

Anybody that races on open roads, on open traffic, and that includes ghostriders, is an idiot. Full stop. No matter on how many wheels.
Last edited by Steven on 17 May 2015, 18:24, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed personal comments
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

emaren
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Andres125sx wrote:So we´re comparing high perfomance road legal cars vs bikes.... ok but I wonder the reason we´re comparing fastest bikes vs not fastest cars, if we do

N-ring fastest laptimes:

Yamaha R1 7:10

Porsche 918 spyder 6:57
Nissan GT-R Nismo 7:08
Except this is not a level playing field.

Motorcycles are not permitted to run under the conditions that the cars enjoy....
....motorcycles are forbidden to participate in industry pool sessions and after-hours test sessions, Performance Bikes were forced to test during quiet mid-week tourist sessions, where speed limits apply in some sections.....
Which really means that all talk of comparing times around 'The Ring' are not a lot of use.

It is therefore impossible to compare that R1 time, or the GSXR 600 (yes 600cc) time that is just seven second slower to anything other than BTG times, because Bring to Gantry on public days, complete with speed limits are rarely published.

Taking into account the reduced speed sections (high speeds are the Bike's forte apparently, and the reduced length of the run is anyones guess.

What would be ideal is if you could compare, say a Ducati and a McLaren around a decently fast circuit. That would certainly answer the question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IteniLcLImU

Or maybe a 458 vs a Ducati ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPNs3v4m7TA

However on a damp track the GTR will generally win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Man0X0bf8vk

On a twisty track, Ducati vs Audi RS6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRQ1hxIucwM

Or maybe against an Audi R8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13jJnQxGUhQ

I've long forgotten why we care about this, I drive more than I ride, heck I ride a bicycle more often then I drive.

If you lived in this town though, I will easily beat you from one side to the other on my trusty single-speed. If we held the contest during the School-Run hour or the 'rush hours' I could probably get from one side to the other and back several times using pedal power while car drivers are sitting still.

Peace...

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Phil
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Tim.Wright wrote:You need to be careful with Nuerburgring times. You never know what the start and end points are.
That's true, of course. Anyone is free to compare the two side by side though:

Nissan GT-R full-lap 7:24
R1 BTG 7:10

You can easily run them side by side in two browser windows. Two things become apparent quite quick; The Nissan is mighty in the corners and overal grip levels, as well as braking. And; the way the R1 is being driven right at the very limit... stunning. The Nissan video looks like a walk-in-the-park comparatively.

And in reply to emaren's last post in the meanwhile; I'm not sure where that R1 ever lifted to brake due to speed limits. Traffic wasn't an issue either. So the video is as representative as any other. And in the end, it's just the 2+2 seat 1740kg heavy Nissan. I could have picked the Zonda-R lap time, or the newer GT-R video. That was besides the point though and in the end, I really can't be bothered about which posted a better time, because I don't care either way. I'm merely interested in a constructive discussion on the why and where.


emaren;
The Ducati and McLaren video illustrates the point rather nicely and has been exactly as I always said. The majority of tracks I've driven on have even slower (tighter) corners, so the difference is even greater. Still, in that very video on that particular track, the Ducati in the end beat the McLaren by 1.6seconds. Considering how much quicker the Ducati is in a straightline, again, the only logical conclusion is that the McLaren must be making up most of its time in the corners in which the McLaren is quicker. And under braking. The 'Ring is a nice comparison metric, as it is closer to a real world typical b-road scenerio. Slower corners, relatively bumpy, fast straights etc. Most other tracks (especially in some of the videos that you've linked) feature what I consitute as higher speed corners in which bikes prevail unless you may be pitting them against extremer machinery with downforce and higher power/weight ratios. This isn't wrong per say; it's just important to understand why and where bikes excel. The better times they achieve on some tracks vs. wrose times on other tracks are simply a logical conclusion to the matter. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you don't limit cars by road legality or type, then even on a track that is tailored explicitly to the advantages of a bike could probably be beaten in a dedicated car (high downforce, grippy tires, high power/weight). That's just the nature of it. Most of the time, the biggest limiting factor on bikes is going to be the rider himself, not the bike, as I'm sure you yourself can appreciate. The R1 video on the ring above demonstrates this nicely; a lockup, a bump in the wrong place, a small error here or there and the likely result is death. Even if we assume a rider extracting the maximum from his bike, the bike still faces some inherent disadvantages in braking and slow/-tight corners. Bumpy roads. Turns that mandate fast left/right weight shifts. On the other hand, you have brutal fast acceleration, power-to-weight ratios that far exceed even most hypercars. On most tracks, this advantage on its own will see that bikes beat most cars, even if the cars in question might be quicker in some or the majority of corners.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Moose
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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For me this argument is simple. I can have pretty much exactly the same amount of fun with either. But I'm far less likely to become a road crayon in a car.