Corruption in f1

[Boff]

During the fifa corruption diversion recently, I noticed some accusations of f1 being corrupt. When do business deals become corruption, & what should be done to ensure accusations of corruption don't damage the sport? Answers on a toilet roll please.

[natehall]

in my mind Corruption is black and white. in simplistic terms..

When a person puts his/her personal gain over the business. IE Mr A and Mr B both have an offer of contract with Mr E, Mr A is offering £10, Mr B £15 but Mr A offers Mr E £3 to deal with him, and so Mr E selects Mr A over Mr B..

[PlatinumZealot]

Kick-back deals (like nate posted above).

Money laundering.

Conflicts of interests. (Example if Jean Todt somehow plants his son in a top position in the FIA).

Vote manipulation..

And many more can be seen as curruption.

[Moxie]

"Corruption" is one of those terms that is used on a sliding scale, and may be defined differently by different people dependent upon the specifics and the subtleties of each situation. When it comes to criminal charges, there is high standard that must be met.

In the U.S. It is not a crime to make incredibly bad business decisions, even when those bad business decisions do trillions of dollars worth of financial damage to millions of people, while at the same time bringing the global economy into a depression for several years. Credit default swaps on fraudulent mortgage bundles have been identified primary instrument of destruction, and the banks that issued the fraudulent instruments have been identified. None the less, the individuals responsible for the fraud have not been prosecuted because it is really difficult to beat the defense of incompetence.

You can bet, that any prosecutor that brings "corruption" related charges, has some really strong evidence to establish intent, which in the U.S. Legal system is a critical element of this type of crime.

[MOWOG]

Corruption in Formula One? I'm shocked. SHOCKED!

[ModelT]

"Corruption" is one of those terms that is used on a sliding scale, and may be defined differently by different people dependent upon the specifics and the subtleties of each situation. When it comes to criminal charges, there is high standard that must be met.

In the U.S. It is not a crime to make incredibly bad business decisions, even when those bad business decisions do trillions of dollars worth of financial damage to millions of people, while at the same time bringing the global economy into a depression for several years. Credit default swaps on fraudulent mortgage bundles have been identified primary instrument of destruction, and the banks that issued the fraudulent instruments have been identified. None the less, the individuals responsible for the fraud have not been prosecuted because it is really difficult to beat the defense of incompetence.

You can bet, that any prosecutor that brings "corruption" related charges, has some really strong evidence to establish intent, which in the U.S. Legal system is a critical element of this type of crime.

There is a vast difference between.............In the U.S. It is not a crime to make incredibly bad business decisions and outright planned, instigated fraud or to be more precise, theft.

The reasons no one has been prosecuted is not because.............it is really difficult to beat the defense of incompetence....rather they have political connections and spread the profit of their crime around.

The FIFA affair is purely political by the US, and one can assume as soon as they appoint a new puppet president, first order of the day will no doubt be to strip the World Cup from Russia. As for F1 corruption, I guess Bernie is fortunate that he is not Russian and is in the correct camp, or F1 would be shut down by now.....

[Cold Fussion]

Bernie is possibly more careful about handling money in the US compared to what FIFA were apparently doing.

[WaikeCU]

Is the Sauber-VDG case not a sign of corruption? In a way Sauber is linked with football, because of the Chelsea FC sponsorship.

[Moxie]

There is a vast difference between.............In the U.S. It is not a crime to make incredibly bad business decisions and outright planned, instigated fraud or to be more precise, theft.

Perhaps I didn't express myself well. I intended to imply that outright planned fraud is covered up by the excuse of incompetence. In the example of the mortgage bundles, the banks sold bundles of mortgages which were all supposed to be AAA rated, but they slipped in a bunch of poorly rated mortgages without telling the buyers. The behavior itself was absolutely intentional. Most people would agree that it is fraudulent to sell 100 oz. of gold, but then deliver 95 oz. of gold and 5 oz. of lead. None-the-less, the individual bank officers responsible claimed that they didn't fully understand the effects of their actions. These very thin claims of incompetence have successfully protected them from prosecution.

The reasons no one has been prosecuted is not because.............it is really difficult to beat the defense of incompetence....rather they have political connections and spread the profit of their crime around.

I agree that politics plays an important role in whether a corrupt enterprise is successful.

The FIFA affair is purely political by the US, and one can assume as soon as they appoint a new puppet president, first order of the day will no doubt be to strip the World Cup from Russia. As for F1 corruption, I guess Bernie is fortunate that he is not Russian and is in the correct camp, or F1 would be shut down by now.....

The motives for perusing this investigation may indeed be purely political. However, as organizations doing business in the U.S. (As corporations, LLC's or NFPO's), they must, in theory, still abide by the applicable laws. My long winded explanation was simply suggesting that these organizations can often behavior skirt the law by using incompetence excuse, and as you rightfully point out, because of political influence.

For a prosecutor to overcome these hurdles and actually file charges suggests that the evidence is pretty solid.

[mrluke]

Days are numbered for corrupt enterprises, no matter how big they are.

[Cannonballer]

There is a vast difference between.............In the U.S. It is not a crime to make incredibly bad business decisions and outright planned, instigated fraud or to be more precise, theft.

Perhaps I didn't express myself well. I intended to imply that outright planned fraud is covered up by the excuse of incompetence. In the example of the mortgage bundles, the banks sold bundles of mortgages which were all supposed to be AAA rated, but they slipped in a bunch of poorly rated mortgages without telling the buyers. The behavior itself was absolutely intentional. Most people would agree that it is fraudulent to sell 100 oz. of gold, but then deliver 95 oz. of gold and 5 oz. of lead. None-the-less, the individual bank officers responsible claimed that they didn't fully understand the effects of their actions. These very thin claims of incompetence have successfully protected them from prosecution.

The reasons no one has been prosecuted is not because.............it is really difficult to beat the defense of incompetence....rather they have political connections and spread the profit of their crime around.

I agree that politics plays an important role in whether a corrupt enterprise is successful.

The FIFA affair is purely political by the US, and one can assume as soon as they appoint a new puppet president, first order of the day will no doubt be to strip the World Cup from Russia. As for F1 corruption, I guess Bernie is fortunate that he is not Russian and is in the correct camp, or F1 would be shut down by now.....

The motives for perusing this investigation may indeed be purely political. However, as organizations doing business in the U.S. (As corporations, LLC's or NFPO's), they must, in theory, still abide by the applicable laws. My long winded explanation was simply suggesting that these organizations can often behavior skirt the law by using incompetence excuse, and as you rightfully point out, because of political influence.

For a prosecutor to overcome these hurdles and actually file charges suggests that the evidence is pretty solid.

The reason no one was charged in the financial meltdown is politics. Perhaps some companies/people may have been able to successfully defend themselves by claiming incompetence, but many more could easily have been convicted.

Prosecutors can, and sometimes do, indict a ham sandwich. It has nothing to do with the quality of the evidence, but rather the quality of the political connections and political climate.

FIFA is a great example. They have been violating the same laws that are now at issue forever. Political climate wasn't conducive to anyone caring, much less prosecuting. Once it became a way to f**k with a USA enemy Russia and a Saudi Arabian (a USA ally extraordinaire) enemy Qatar, heads began to roll...

[Manoah2u]

Days are numbered for corrupt enterprises, no matter how big they are.

keep believing that

or do you believe in the fairy tales that governments and democrasies aren't actually corrupt

[sgth0mas]

Do you believe government and democracies last forever?

And it seems to have worked well for fifa. Just wait for F1 to get big enough in the US (probably wont happen in bernies lifetime so maybe its a moot point), and upset the wrong investors and itll all come tumbling.

[mrluke]

Days are numbered for corrupt enterprises, no matter how big they are.

keep believing that

or do you believe in the fairy tales that governments and democrasies aren't actually corrupt

Its not going to happen overnight but the cultural pressure for transparency and accountability is building.

Freedom of Information
Anti Bribery legislation
Bernie's bribery case (that he bribed his way out of)
Audi & Renault wanting rid of Bernie
FIFA corruption investigation
EU moving to ban geo restrictions

It is going to be a long long road but maintaining a corrupt organisation is going to get more and more difficult.

The developing world is going to take a bit longer to catch up.