Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

[CHT]

BTW, many people complain about drivers who can´t push hard, and I agree, that´s a problem. But that´s not caused by engines, but by tires.

Actually it has got to due to power delivery of the PU, particularly the ERS.

No, it´s the poor tires that can´t cope with that because Pirelli was asked to manufacture weak tires intentionally

We´ve even seen some races when this tires couldn´t cope with one single lap pushing hard, when 30 years back there was tires that coped with 1400bhp turbo engines perfectly (for qualifying). That´s the problem, current tires, not PUs delivery

Everyone is using the same tires, some teams are able to do it better than the other is because their engine power delivery of their PU is more linear than others. And that is one of the problem Honda is facing right now, the engine mapping fuel efficiency, engine deployment and drivability; these the same thing which Renault have been struggling since last year.

[Andres125sx]

The comparison beteween teams may cause the illusion some don´t have problems with tires because others have bigger problems, but that´s far from reality, all of them struggle with tires because current tires are crap

Not a surprise when you know FIA intentionally asked for tires like this

[CHT]

The comparison beteween teams may cause the illusion some don´t have problems with tires because others have bigger problems, but that´s far from reality, all of them struggle with tires because current tires are crap

Not a surprise when you know FIA intentionally asked for tires like this

I am not aware of much complain on the tires because all teams are running the same compound. But both Honda and Renault teams have been complaining a lot on drivability. I am guessing it must be due to the complex nature of the PU, which consist of 3 power delivery components

[Nathanael F1]

I don't really know why people are so against the sound (or lack thereof) of the V6 turbos. If that is what you want to see/hear when you watch motorsport, you're looking in the wrong place. Motorsport is about the racing, not the sound.

What F1 really needs is less corruption and tires that allow the drivers to race flat out. There's way too much tire management right now IMO.

[piast9]

I don't really know why people are so against the sound (or lack thereof) of the V6 turbos. If that is what you want to see/hear when you watch motorsport, you're looking in the wrong place. Motorsport is about the racing, not the sound.

Maybe for the drivers but not for the spectators. I've never been to the F1 race but for the example the speedway match is all about racing, noise and smell of burned methanol fuel.

[bhall II]

The torque levels that these V6s provide make it harder to drive than the EBD V8s planted to the floor, and that's a good thing for entertainment.

Spurious torque claims notwithstanding, I've seen this, or something like it, stated many times since last year. But, I don't understand how such a view can be so pervasive when the drivers themselves don't seem to agree.

Fernando Alonso says it has been a decade since he last felt he was physically and mentally challenged to the limit in an F1 car, adding that the sport could well have been heading in the wrong direction since then.

[...]

“In 2005 the cars were eight seconds quicker. In Malaysia this year the engineers made a calculation that the winner this year compared to the winner in 2006 was six laps slower – so he would have been lapped six times.

“When you are six or seven minutes in a race, or eight seconds per lap quicker than this year's car that is very demanding physically and mentally and everything was pushed to the limit. This was maybe ten years ago.”

"When I came into Formula 1, it was more exciting for everybody, it was like really the top, it was a long time ago," [Kimi] Raikkonen told Canal+ France."

"We would have expected that cars would be faster and more exciting, but there is the rules changes … they try to make it slower."

"I'm sure something has to be done to make it more exciting to people to watch and also to really see the speed and make it a little bit more dangerous."

"It is part of the game."

Vettel said if it was up to him, he would make the F1 cars "faster again, whether that is through more power and downforce or better tires."

"It must be a challenge again to tame these beasts, so that the wheat is separated from the chaff."

The sad reality is that the drivers are not enjoying the current F1. They are just not tested sufficiently.

Of course, the cars are hard to drive. They remain the fastest and most sophisticated racing cars in the world.

But they are not difficult enough - either physically or mentally.

At the moment the cars are too easy to drive. They are too progressive, there is too much technical help for the drivers. So we decided this and at the same time we want 1000hp because what has to be done is when a young driver gets into a Formula One car, he should --- in his pants when he drives out of the pits. And this is not happening today.

“[Fans] see cars that are slower in the corners and drivers who move the switches when their engineers tell them,” [Pedro] de la Rosa added. “The case of Max Verstappen has shown that, while his talent is great, the jump from F3 to F1 is no longer so big.”

“To see him and even (Carlos) Sainz adapt so quickly is not good because it means that F1 is too close to the lower categories and that the performance gap that used to make it so special is no longer there.”

[Nigel] Mansell, 61, says it is time to "let the drivers drive and race like we did" in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

The 1992 world champion says modern F1 cars have become too easy to control and that "drivers can drive with a couple of fingers".

The Briton wants to ditch the Drag Reduction System that aids overtaking and says tyres need to have more grip.

"Then if a driver wants to deliver the car into a corner and brake really late, put the power on and get sideways, he can do it," he explained.

"It's very exciting for the fans to watch that."

"They've just messed with it so much. I don't even know the rules anymore and I rarely watch it to be honest," [Eddie Irvine] admitted. "They've just bastardised the whole of Formula 1 for the sake of chasing viewers that never arrived.

"They didn't care about the fans who knew the history and the circuits and those who really worshiped the way it was. Instead they went off chasing the latest fad."

Irvine, who also drove for Jordan and Jaguar during his nine year F1 career, says the sport is too easy now, with excitement levels drained because the skill involved has been watered down excessively.

"They've made overtaking easier. What's the point in making it easier because now it's not as valuable. In the past, when someone made an overtaking manoeuvre people would think to themselves 'wow, that was amazing'.

[bksthree]

Try listening to this and you will know whats missing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKQMt01rKiQ

Completely agree. on tv the sound doesn't make a difference. live is another matter. i was amazed at how much quieter the v6 engines are compared to the v8. the racing is still good but i miss that ear splitting sound. if you haven't experienced it live, its a moot point.

[Andres125sx]

The comparison beteween teams may cause the illusion some don´t have problems with tires because others have bigger problems, but that´s far from reality, all of them struggle with tires because current tires are crap

Not a surprise when you know FIA intentionally asked for tires like this

I am not aware of much complain on the tires because all teams are running the same compound. But both Honda and Renault teams have been complaining a lot on drivability. I am guessing it must be due to the complex nature of the PU, which consist of 3 power delivery components

They complain about THEIR units, not about the concept of the engine.
Do you think they'd complain if driving a mercedes PU?

[Andres125sx]

The torque levels that these V6s provide make it harder to drive than the EBD V8s planted to the floor, and that's a good thing for entertainment.

Spurious torque claims notwithstanding, I've seen this, or something like it, stated many times since last year. But, I don't understand how such a view can be so pervasive when the drivers themselves don't seem to agree.

Fernando Alonso says it has been a decade since he last felt he was physically and mentally challenged to the limit in an F1 car...

A decade, so the problem is not the PU intrduced past season

And most of the quotes you posted are the same, they complain about cars being slower, and main responsability for that goes to aero restrictions, not to the engines, even for this last two season when not only v6 were introduced, but also aero was more limited

[notsofast]

Well, if the cars are too easy to drive, maybe the track layout should be made more difficult?

[bhall II]

A decade, so the problem is not the PU intrduced past season

And most of the quotes you posted are the same, they complain about cars being slower, and main responsability for that goes to aero restrictions, not to the engines, even for this last two season when not only v6 were introduced, but also aero was more limited

Actually, most of the quotes explicitly make note of the ease with which current machinery can be driven, and that includes the PU since it's an inexorable part of the car. It doesn't matter if it's only the latest in a long line of changes that have diluted the challenge posed by driving at "the pinnacle of motorsport"; it's still a factor.

The power units are bulky, heavy, expensive, operated within the narrow confines of illogically strict regulations, and they're highly detrimental to "the show." If certain manufacturers didn't have vested marketing interests in the technology involved, hybrid power plants run under a mantle of efficiency and sustainability would have never been adopted in the first place, because they're antithetical to everything F1 used to be.

The sport will never be "green"; it will never be efficient; and I'd personally rather watch Cosworth duke it out with Riccardo to see who can make the loudest, most fuel-thirsty, high-revving, naturally aspirated abomination the world has ever seen.

That's F1: no compromises.

[sgth0mas]

Even LH mentiond how easy some of his wins are...these cars are simply easier to win with when you get the lead. Just because theyre torquey doesnt mean theyre physically demanding. Have non of yall toyed around on a slick track or hard tires? Yeah you can break the tires free...but that doesnt make it more physically demanding. These cars may be sensitive...but theyre not even close to being difficult to drive on the limit compared to cars of the past.

The reasons i think the V6s are a problem is because of the number of failures. Then theres the noise. Then theres the lap times. Then theres the fact that its a jacked up prius engine. Then theres lift and coast...the list goes on.

I hate the F1 V6s and its slowly been pushing me and other fans away. Say you dont care...but it will have long term implications for the sport if its not fixed.

[SectorOne]

A decade, so the problem is not the PU intrduced past season

And most of the quotes you posted are the same, they complain about cars being slower, and main responsability for that goes to aero restrictions, not to the engines, even for this last two season when not only v6 were introduced, but also aero was more limited

Actually, most of the quotes explicitly make note of the ease with which current machinery can be driven, and that includes the PU since it's an inexorable part of the car.

It doesn´t mean the engine is at fault just because it´s part of the car.
Otherwise the wheel rims are at fault as well. They´re not mentioned in the quotes but since they are an "inexorable part of the car" its their fault as well.

Find quotes specifically targeting the engine and how easy it is to drive. Last time i checked the V8´s went like on rails while today you see huge oversteer moments in corners because someone got a little bit too excited on the throttle mid-corner.

The quotes have been taken way out of context just to promote a certain viewpoint when in reality,

Alonso´s quote is about tires and aero not being able to push to the limit like it was 10 years ago.
Not the engine being too weak or too easy to drive.

All your quotes basically talk about the mentally and physically taxing bit. Kimi about the show a bit.
Pushing a throttle pedal whether you have a 1,000 horses or a combined 850 with a much wider powerband will have zero effect on that.

Pure downforce on the other hand is extremely physical and eventually mentally taxing
Tires that also allow you to push is the same.

Yes the engines are ridiculously expensive, probably was never needed for F1 and isnt as loud as a V10 but you know it has nothing to do with the physical and mentally taxing bit.

[CHT]

Try listening to this and you will know whats missing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKQMt01rKiQ

Completely agree. on tv the sound doesn't make a difference. live is another matter. i was amazed at how much quieter the v6 engines are compared to the v8. the racing is still good but i miss that ear splitting sound. if you haven't experienced it live, its a moot point.

In this video the track side commentators has got to stop talking to avoid drowning out the engine noise

[Juzh]

V6T itself is not an issue, draconian restrictions surrounding it are. Just lose the fuel limit, and up the flow limit to something like 110kg @ 12000 and 120kg @ 13500.