2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[gruntguru]

I can only think of two scenarios where the MGUH is used as a motor.
1. To provide boost during periods of part throttle operation (eg cornering) where the exhaust flow may be insufficient to maintain boost using turbine power alone. This would be in anticipation of the next high power event. As soon as that event commences, the turbine power output will exceed the compressor power requirement and the MGUH will become a generator.
2. During an emergency power event, where efficiency is briefly sacrificed by running the MGUH and MGUK from the ES and with the wastegate open to improve crankshaft power. Note this would produce less total output than putting the same electrical power directly into a larger MGUK (if the rules were to allow it).

[bergie88]

I can only think of two scenarios where the MGUH is used as a motor.
1. To provide boost during periods of part throttle operation (eg cornering) where the exhaust flow may be insufficient to maintain boost using turbine power alone. This would be in anticipation of the next high power event. As soon as that event commences, the turbine power output will exceed the compressor power requirement and the MGUH will become a generator.
2. During an emergency power event, where efficiency is briefly sacrificed by running the MGUH and MGUK from the ES and with the wastegate open to improve crankshaft power. Note this would produce less total output than putting the same electrical power directly into a larger MGUK (if the rules were to allow it).

Is the last sentence of point 2 proven somewhere at this site? I am pretty curious if this is true or not, because it might even be true with the current MGUK maximum power. It is all about the trade-off between reducing backpressure to the engine, increasing its power output, and the power generated by the MGUH directly send to the MGUK. These kind of things can be solved with optimal control algorithms together with simulation of the complete powertrain, which is already done by Ferrari (more about this in another topic) and probably also by the other engine manufacturers.

[PABLOEING]

¿ 5 engines per car in 2016 with 21 GP's?

[Moose]

¿ 5 engines per car in 2016 with 21 GP's?

No, just each engine will have to do 0.5 more races.

[ME4ME]

¿ 5 engines per car in 2016 with 21 GP's?

Yes, correct.

28.4 a) Unless he drives for more than one team (see 28.4(g) below), and subject to the
additions described in b) and c) below, each driver may use no more than four power
units during a Championship season.

b) With the consent of (and at the sole discretion of) the FIA, the number in a) above will
be increased by one for any driver using a power unit provided by a manufacturer or
supplier taking part in his first Championship season.

c) The number in a) above will also be increased by one if the number of Events, as
scheduled at the start of the first Event of the Championship, exceeds 20.

[trinidefender]

I can only think of two scenarios where the MGUH is used as a motor.
1. To provide boost during periods of part throttle operation (eg cornering) where the exhaust flow may be insufficient to maintain boost using turbine power alone. This would be in anticipation of the next high power event. As soon as that event commences, the turbine power output will exceed the compressor power requirement and the MGUH will become a generator.
2. During an emergency power event, where efficiency is briefly sacrificed by running the MGUH and MGUK from the ES and with the wastegate open to improve crankshaft power. Note this would produce less total output than putting the same electrical power directly into a larger MGUK (if the rules were to allow it).

Is the last sentence of point 2 proven somewhere at this site? I am pretty curious if this is true or not, because it might even be true with the current MGUK maximum power. It is all about the trade-off between reducing backpressure to the engine, increasing its power output, and the power generated by the MGUH directly send to the MGUK. These kind of things can be solved with optimal control algorithms together with simulation of the complete powertrain, which is already done by Ferrari (more about this in another topic) and probably also by the other engine manufacturers.

You are misunderstanding how the current rules are setup. There is unlimited transfer of energy from MGU-H to MGU-K however there is a maximum cap of 120 kw (161 hp) that can be used by MGU-K at any one time regardless of where that energy comes from, ES or MGU-H.

What I believe GG is saying is that if the rules allowed a larger and more powerful MGU-K then it would be more efficient to just dump all the energy into the MGU-K instead of sending some to the MGU-H to allow it to run with an open wastegate.

[she_spools_180]

I am sorry if that has been covered before in the preceding 500+ pages, but not sure how to find it.

Can some one please explain the flashing light during dry racing?

The commentators explained that this is to indicate the car might be a bit slow, as it is charging the batteries.

I assume this to mean that acceleration will be compromised due to some of the kinetic energy, otherwise used to spin the wheels, being directed to the MGU-K?

First of all, the only reason I could assume this to be beneficial, is if you do not have enough charge coming from the braking energy, and you need the full 6.x seconds of MGU-K assistance on a long straight to defend for example.

But this seems unlikely, as the motor generator unit should have similar input and output capabilities, and if you can extract up to 6.x seconds of extra power, then you should be able to charge within a similar time frame, no? And surely there is more than a total of 7 seconds of braking on a whole track?

Secondly, why is this allowed? It seems like this goes against the whole "fuel economy" philosophy, as you are not using waste energy to charge the battery, you are using energy that would have been used to accelerate the car. So it is just a change of state of energy, and not a actually energy recovery?

[Tommy Cookers]

the MGU-K has the same power 120 kW (and torque) limit in generation and motor action
but its motor action when running on stored electricity is in effect time-restricted by the lap energy-limit rule
when using electricity direct (real-time) from the MGU-H generation action the MGU-K motor action is of unlimited duration
ie the car is electrically propelled in part from KE recovered in braking and in part from exhaust energy semi-continuously recovered
in this way MGU-K motor action at or near 120 kW seems continuous whenever the driver is calling for max ICE power

afaik the flashing light tells us that the MU-K motor action has stopped, so generated current can be sent to storage
presumably this generated current is coming from GU-H action
(and one suspects also from GU-K action without the driver braking - others will be pleased to tell us if this is incorrect)
anyway after the flashing light process the car has less KE and less braking need than it would otherwise

yes, because of the 120 kW limit on GU-K action only a small fraction of the KE is recovered (especially at high lap-KE circuits)
and this recovery would allow full MU-K power for only part of the time the ICE is at full power
but also about 12% of the exhaust energy is recovered (by GU-H action), so powering the MU-K to complete its entitlement
no heat is recovered from coolant

some believe in other conditions energy directly ('real-time') from fuel burn is 'recovered' as electricity (ie driving against GU-K action)
technically (and 'morally') justifiable when the driver wants partial power, as generator load allows less ICE throttling than otherwise needed
because the ICE efficiency improves with less throttling, to an extent the generator is using fuel that otherwise would be wasted

[Cold Fussion]

I am sorry if that has been covered before in the preceding 500+ pages, but not sure how to find it.

Can some one please explain the flashing light during dry racing?

The commentators explained that this is to indicate the car might be a bit slow, as it is charging the batteries.

I assume this to mean that acceleration will be compromised due to some of the kinetic energy, otherwise used to spin the wheels, being directed to the MGU-K?

First of all, the only reason I could assume this to be beneficial, is if you do not have enough charge coming from the braking energy, and you need the full 6.x seconds of MGU-K assistance on a long straight to defend for example.

But this seems unlikely, as the motor generator unit should have similar input and output capabilities, and if you can extract up to 6.x seconds of extra power, then you should be able to charge within a similar time frame, no? And surely there is more than a total of 7 seconds of braking on a whole track?

Secondly, why is this allowed? It seems like this goes against the whole "fuel economy" philosophy, as you are not using waste energy to charge the battery, you are using energy that would have been used to accelerate the car. So it is just a change of state of energy, and not a actually energy recovery?

I don't know for sure but I think the flashing rain light is when the the mgu-k is harvesting while the driver is lifting and coasting. As a fuel saving measure you'd normally lift and coast for variable amounts before the braking zone, with it being more efficient to charge the batteries at this point rather letting the aero do all the braking.

[Tommy Cookers]

which could mean a driver decelerating at 1.2- 1.5 g long before the braking point ?
or decelerating at 0.1 - 0.2 g (or not decelerating at all) long before the braking point ?
according to the ICE power in use
but both cases covered by the flashing light

wasn't 'lift and coast' just commentater-speak ? (and not to be taken as spoken)

[mrluke]

Pretty sure the light flashes during acceleration rather than just when you would expect it to.

[she_spools_180]

the MGU-K has the same power 120 kW (and torque) limit in generation and motor action
but its motor action when running on stored electricity is in effect time-restricted by the lap energy-limit rule
when using electricity direct (real-time) from the MGU-H generation action the MGU-K motor action is of unlimited duration
ie the car is electrically propelled in part from KE recovered in braking and in part from exhaust energy semi-continuously recovered
in this way MGU-K motor action at or near 120 kW seems continuous whenever the driver is calling for max ICE power


afaik the flashing light tells us that the MU-K motor action has stopped, so generated current can be sent to storage
presumably this generated current is coming from GU-H action
(and one suspects also from GU-K action without the driver braking - others will be pleased to tell us if this is incorrect)
anyway after the flashing light process the car has less KE and less braking need than it would otherwise

So, if I understand correctly, you are saying that the rules stipulate that the extra 120kW that is available to the driver, from the MU-K, at the push of the button, for a limited time, is only based on the stored energy being used. Any energy that the GU-H is recovering (in its action as a wastegate-repalcement), can be sent to the batteries, or alternatively, it can be sent to the MU-K to propel the car, and this does not eat in to the allocation to the driver (for 'free' essentially). You are suggesting that this (GU-H > MU-K) is happening almost all the time, and in cases where the recovered energy is sent to storage instead of the MU-K, this is where the light flashes?

This makes a lot of sense, in any case, I still question the use of this. This would be a counter-intuitive action to take I would think, to send recovered energy to storage, instead of getting a 'free' boost at any WOT event? Because as soon as it goes to storage, it becomes 'metered' and no longer 'free'

yes, because of the 120 kW limit on GU-K action only a small fraction of the KE is recovered (especially at high lap-KE circuits)
and this recovery would allow full MU-K power for only part of the time the ICE is at full power
but also about 12% of the exhaust energy is recovered (by GU-H action), so powering the MU-K to complete its entitlement
no heat is recovered from coolant

I am not sure I follow here. I understand that only a small fraction of KE is recovered by the GU-K action, but if we say, hypothetically, that a particular braking event, at the beginning, generates approximately 1000kW, maybe 200 of that goes to aero, 680 goes to the brake rotors as heat, and 120 goes to the GU-K. The proportions (and total) will change, as the car slows during a braking event, but the 120 that goes to the GU-K should remain relatively constant, no? And since there is - I assume - more than 7 seconds of braking in total on a track, then you should be able to charge the batteries enough to then be able to dispense 120kW at will for the full amount of time.

some believe in other conditions energy directly ('real-time') from fuel burn is 'recovered' as electricity (ie driving against GU-K action)
technically (and 'morally') justifiable when the driver wants partial power, as generator load allows less ICE throttling than otherwise needed
because the ICE efficiency improves with less throttling, to an extent the generator is using fuel that otherwise would be wasted

This bit makes sense, as you could limit torque output to the wheels by driving against the GU-K action, instead of throttling the engine, improving efficiency, in the way of storing the extra energy. However this would not explain the flashing light/going slow, as the torque request of the driver's foot would still be fulfilled entirely, just through a different means.

I don't know for sure but I think the flashing rain light is when the the mgu-k is harvesting while the driver is lifting and coasting. As a fuel saving measure you'd normally lift and coast for variable amounts before the braking zone, with it being more efficient to charge the batteries at this point rather letting the aero do all the braking.

Ok, if you are fuel saving, I could understand this, but if someone is close enough behind you to see the flashing light, do you think you would be fuel saving, 'lift & coast'-ing? Or would you be defending, or keeping up the pace to keep them at bay? Instead of telling them "I'm going to be slow entering/exiting this corner, this could be an opportunity for you to overtake"

[Cold Fussion]

• The ES has a 4 MJ/lap storage capacity.
• From the MGU-K to the ES there is a 2 MJ/lap limit.
• From the ES to the MGU-K there is a 4 MJ/lap limit.
• From the MGU-H to the ES there is a 120 kW limit.
• From the MGU-H to the MGU-K there is a 120 kW limit.

Alternatively you can check the energy flow graph in the regulations but this is the summary of the rules.

EDIT: Here is the energy flow graph:

I don't know for sure but I think the flashing rain light is when the the mgu-k is harvesting while the driver is lifting and coasting. As a fuel saving measure you'd normally lift and coast for variable amounts before the braking zone, with it being more efficient to charge the batteries at this point rather letting the aero do all the braking.

Ok, if you are fuel saving, I could understand this, but if someone is close enough behind you to see the flashing light, do you think you would be fuel saving, 'lift & coast'-ing? Or would you be defending, or keeping up the pace to keep them at bay? Instead of telling them "I'm going to be slow entering/exiting this corner, this could be an opportunity for you to overtake"

Of course and this is what we see in the race. If you need to fuel save and don't fuel save you wont make it to the end and thus any defending you did do is all in vein. It's all part of the race strategy.

[wuzak]

Cold Fusion, the second last point is incorrect.

There is no power or energy limitation for transfer between MGUH and ES.

Perhaps, you meant the MGUK -> ES has 120kW limit?

[wuzak]

Shee Spools, while there appears to be a lot of braking energy available for capture, most of that is taken by the front brakes, which are not connected to an MGU.

The rear brakes will have ~35-40% of the braking at most.

Also note that the peak braking power is reached early in the braking event, reducing as the speed does, because there is less downforce and, thus, less grip to drive the tyres.