Aerodynamics of road cars

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rjsa
rjsa
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 03:01

Re: Aerodynamics of road cars

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ChrisF1 wrote:
rjsa wrote:
Greg Locock wrote:Styling, packaging and pedestrian crash, outweighs frontal aero. We already know what a 0.19 car looks like in production, not many people liked it. We know what a 0.25 car looks like, it sells quite well, but hasn't exactly started a host of copycats.
It'd be great to see exactly what you are referring to here.
The EV-1 is the vehicle that rated at 0.19 - sorry, I can't link a pic right now.
Tks Chris, Greg!

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Andres125sx
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Re: Aerodynamics of road cars

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Flynfrog are you here?

Do you know what´s the coeficient of those solar cars?

Greg Locock
Greg Locock
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Joined: 30 Jun 2012, 00:48

Re: Aerodynamics of road cars

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I used to design/build/race with Aurora. The best we ever measured on the track, on a 93 car with a male plug pulled direct from the mould and then polished up (Ie no cells, which roughen the surface), was around 0.08 (+/- 0.01).


http://www.aurorasolarcar.com/Galleries ... nAurora-23

That car used a laminar flow airfoil, using wool tufts we demonstrated separation at about 60%, just behind the bubble, but didn't have it in a windtunnel so never found where the laminar transition was, but it must have been close to that. That car was fitted with wheel spat blockers, to reduce internal circulation, we didn't race with them.

Adding cells to that shape we were were probably up around 0.10, but I don't think we ever measured the race body, that is inferred from the telemetry. UNSW and Tuggerong raced various versions of these cars later, they may have made better measurements.

I do not know the figures for the later cars (I was mostly chassis driveline motor and strategy), they look better to me. Here's one that was designed using CFD.

http://www.aurorasolarcar.com/Galleries ... Janeiro-22

The big compromise in the tricycle design is that the front wheel spat has to be quite wide so you can steer. This accelerates the flow under the body. It then has to get around the rear wheel spats. That increases velocities and so friction.

On one of the cross country jaunts we optimised the ride heights and got the energy consumption down to 8 Wh/km - solar cars aren't especially efficient in some sense because they have a relatively large frontal area for a single person vehicle.

Incidentally Cd*frontalA is a lousy way of looking at solar car aero, it's actually skin friction that matters, pressure recovery and interference drag is a tiny part of the equation in a well sorted design.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Aerodynamics of road cars

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Thank you Greg, unluckily I can´t upvote the message, but it deserve it =D>

What do you think about my comment about the front and rear vertical panels? That must be causing a lot of drag so it may be one of the reasons Mercedes people said production cars can´t reduce drag much more, don´t you think so?

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Aerodynamics of road cars

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Kamm showed.. many decades ago.. that a near 'vertical' clipped/coupe tail could be aero-efficient..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

rjsa
rjsa
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Re: Aerodynamics of road cars

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That should read "more efficient compared to X under Y conditions". I'm sure the truncated rear isn't the absolute best design, it's just more efficient than some.

EDIT: There you go:
In 1936, "further research by the FKFS—Forschungsinstitut für Kraftfahrwesen und Fahrzeugmotoren Stuttgart (Stuttgart Research Institute for Automotive and Automobile Engine Technology), under the direction of Wunibald Kamm, proved that vehicles with the so-called K- or Kamm tail, following Koenig-Faschsenfeld's lead, offered a good compromise between everyday utility (e.g. vehicle length and interior dimensions) and an attractive drag coefficient".[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kammback

Greg Locock
Greg Locock
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Joined: 30 Jun 2012, 00:48

Re: Aerodynamics of road cars

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Yes, it is a good tradeoff rather than an optimum. It sacrifices worse inertia recovery for less surface friction, for a given interior packaging volume.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Aerodynamics of road cars

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So basically the answer is yes, it´s utility what limits the coeficient improvement

Thanks both :)

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
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Re: Aerodynamics of road cars

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You're welcome..

But no, Kamm proved that a proper clipped tail would not "...be causing a lot of drag..."

Kamm worked in Hitler's Reich, which was building the autobahn network at the time,
with record breaking speed runs being held there for sporting/propaganda purposes..

& Adolf himself was a 'motorhead' who backed research into such automotive advances..

The "utility" aspects of aero-design limitations were, of course, covered in the initial replies on page 1..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

McMrocks
McMrocks
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Joined: 14 Apr 2012, 17:58

Re: Aerodynamics of road cars

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However, neither pedestrian safety nor utility forces Audi/BMW/etc to make fake air inlets. They still could design the front of the car more aerodynamic. They don't do it... for aesthetic reasons. Funny for companies who claim to have superior technology. It's not "the best or nothing" or "advancement through technology". As long as customers buy it we simply have to deal with it me thinks. On the other side it is said to see that the companies fool the customers by claiming that the cars have a good aerodynamic performance when they haven't
Last edited by Steven on 23 Aug 2015, 19:54, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed comment on deleted post

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Location: Altair IV.

Re: Aerodynamics of road cars

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Are you sure that those intake duct features..
..you decry as stylistic affectation.. ..are not there - for racing homologation purposes?

Do you have the drag coefficient numbers to compare with the same maker's cars from 30+ years ago?
Last edited by Steven on 23 Aug 2015, 19:55, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed comment on deleted post
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

McMrocks
McMrocks
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Joined: 14 Apr 2012, 17:58

Re: Aerodynamics of road cars

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Nice idea that with the racing homologation.

No i don't have any specific numbers regarding the cd. However the cd will (in most cases) be better than that of a 30 year old car. But it doesn't change anything at the fact that the manufacturers could do more in that area

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Aerodynamics of road cars

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Some hard figures would be helpful..

Those M-B W124s noted earlier - were wind-tunnel tested to a best of 0.29..

If the current units are worse.. then no wonder they're a bit coy about putting 'em out..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

ChrisF1
ChrisF1
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Joined: 28 Feb 2013, 21:48

Re: Aerodynamics of road cars

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I seem to remember one of the electric cars was launched that they were questioned on the inclusion of a grille, and they responded with something similar to the general public wouldn't accept the change of a car that lacks a grille.

I guess you could say the same for the fake vents on cars. Unnecessary for function, but necessary for visual acceptance.

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hollus
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Aerodynamics of road cars

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At one time it was also said that people wouldn't accept mobile phones without keys. Sad that the world works this way. What one could do and what one could sell are two very different things, and it doesn't always make sense.
In most cases, the majority is below the average.