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Honda motorsport boss Yasuhisa Arai has claimed that it is unfair the engine maker is receiving all criticism and has rebuked doubts that the Japanese firm could make enough of a step forward over the next winter to become competitive.
Yes I am aware the fine details of the images is not 100% correct but the main component placement is accurate.Wazari wrote:
So these layouts are incorrect?
If this was the case, I don't think that Alonso would follow the same path of mistakes. Obviously he was perfectly aware of the Ferrari engine layout weakness and still he went after what Ron Denis had offered to him. It think that Honda have some completely different approach (as Wazari mentioned above) but obviously they have misjudge something in the layout.drunkf1fan wrote:Yup, Honda had the same concept as Ferrari exactly. Ferrari may not have had a size zero but their exact plan was to minimise the engine in favour of the chassis/aero design. They didn't think mgu-h harvesting was key and thus made the package smaller by compromising the turbine/compressor/mgu-h layout, size and general design.
This is the thing they changed massively for 2015 and has shown a huge turnaround in the engines performance. Honda/Mclaren went ahead and made all the same choices. Engine designed to fit a chassis concept, not the other way around. Minimised/compromised mgu-h/compressor/turbine to make the package small. the only fundamental difference is taking 18 months to rush the engineering as opposed to Ferrari getting it right as such Ferrari had reliability where Honda didn't.
I've said since April, I expect Mclaren will only become competitive when they change this size zero philosophy and focus on building a good engine and then fitting a chassis to it.
Ferrari however had longer after making the decision to work on the engine before the start of this season, they also brought in some key people with experience of mgu-h and harvesting power then on top of that had a far more reliable design to build from. I think this late in the season to decide that just improving the ICE is a dead end and a layout change is required means they have little to no chance of making the same step as Ferrari. I think more mgu-h power, some of the performance gap reduced but I can't see them fixing reliability properly or making the same jump Ferrari did.
The real questions when it comes to who is to blame would be, should Mclaren be allowed to dictate the design of the Honda engine, ultimately while a partnership they are different companies and Honda have now made a bad engine. They should have seen Ferrari's problems last year and said a flat no to making the same style of engine. Mclaren shouldn't have been some intent on size zero again after seeing Ferrari's performance last year. If Honda wanted to join in 2016 then why on earth did they allow themselves to be rushed into a 2015 engine, how did no one put their foot down and say hey, rushing engineering is a bad idea m'kay.
Realistically until some tell all book is written by someone, probably after Ron dies and someone no longer fears for his job, we won't know who made what choices and who is responsible for this season. Thing is I still just can't believe Honda allowed themselves to get into this situation, rushing an engine and following the same choices the worst engine last year made had disaster written all over it.
Wazari, you speak the truth. The tubo-charge placement is very Ad-hoc on the engine. It is like a regular old engine with a small turbo chucked in between the banks.Wazari wrote:I have some insight to Honda Racing that some people may not have and I can tell you that Honda did not copy Ferrari's 2014 design. They are miles apart. I am biased towards Honda for many reasons and probably not totally objective in my views but the shortfall of Honda's PU IMO is mostly to blame on Honda's executives and McLaren. Honda should have put their foot down and insisted to wait until 2016. I'm sure there were pressures and compromises made between Ron Dennis and Ito. (I personally do not care for either of them. Yes I have met them both.) Also IMO this "size O" concept is a mistake. I also know how arrogant Promoudou can be and how forceful he can be. Again I blame Honda for bowing down to try and rush and put together a "mini" package to fit the PU. Basic F1 design will tell you that you design the bodywork around the powertrain, not the other way around. This is so stupid, again IMO. If I were a betting man, I would bet that this "size 0" concept is scrapped for 2016. If it's not, then shame on Honda and McLaren both for sticking to a losing concept. This makes me angry and I'm sorry to vent...
Arai-san is a brilliant individual whom I am so sorry to see being used as a scapegoat. He doesn't deserve this. As far as someone asking him to apologize to Alonso and Button...I am at a total loss for words, but it's utter BS. This part of Formula 1, I don't miss.
And what were Ferrari chances of a fantastic car this season after his 4th place in the WCC past season?drunkf1fan wrote:As for Alonso following the same path of mistakes, he was shoved out of Ferrari when he overplayed his hand against a company he had publicly upset(with their boss calling out Alonso for comments he made in 2013). There is a reason he went to Mclaren when all signs pointed to a bad 2015, he had no other option left to him.
I can't believe a single experienced driver would believe a 18 month development cycle would magically bring about a competitive car. I don't for a second thing ALonso was swayed to sign for Mclaren as much as he was pushed out the door at Ferrari. I'm intelligent but it really doesn't take a genius to know the chances Mclaren had of a fantastic car this or next year.
MGU-H is used primarily as a wastegate of the turbine harvestings energy on the straights and deploying it to compressor on corners exits when the turbine is not spinning fast enough. If it harvest excessive energy this energy is passed to the ES or directly to MGU-K. Arai speaks that "MGU-H is applied more time on the straight" when actually MGU-H should harvesting, not deploying. The only reason for that is if MGU-K has not enough available energy harvested and stored in ES. The energy in ES is coming from MGU-K during the braking and from MGU-H on the straights. Now, if for some reason MGU-K is not harvesting enough energy this will leave a gap in ES that should be filled by MGU-H. This will affect the primarily purpose of MGU-H to assist the turbine on the corners exits. My guess is that because of this they can not deploy full 160 hp from ERS on the straights. As you see this explanation weights on a problem with MGU-K, not MGU-H. We should remember that the first major issue that they encountered in the preseason tests was the MGU-K seal.drunkf1fan wrote:You don't really 'deploy' mgu-h, mgu-h is used primarily to harvest power to power the mgu-k. They don't have as much power for the mgu-k precisely because they haven't got nearly as much mgu-h harvesting as the other teams. This is directly from an underpowered turbo/mgu-h setup and is precisely the problem Ferrari had.
As for Alonso following the same path of mistakes, he was shoved out of Ferrari when he overplayed his hand against a company he had publicly upset(with their boss calling out Alonso for comments he made in 2013). There is a reason he went to Mclaren when all signs pointed to a bad 2015, he had no other option left to him.
I can't believe a single experienced driver would believe a 18 month development cycle would magically bring about a competitive car. I don't for a second thing ALonso was swayed to sign for Mclaren as much as he was pushed out the door at Ferrari. I'm intelligent but it really doesn't take a genius to know the chances Mclaren had of a fantastic car this or next year.
)#aerogollumturbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
The same reason Red Bull don't want Renault to take over Lotus, especially more is Red Bull's case after what they have said in regards to the Renault power unit. In regards to why McLaren don't use Mercedes power anymore, once Mercedes bought Brawn, McLaren became the B team so to speak, because like most factory teams, they become the main priority. McLaren were better than Mercedes for their first three years of their existence as they built the team back up and now since 2013 Mercedes have been better, also contributing to their poor chassis design of that year. By being with Honda, yes, they can't fight for wins at the moment, but when (if) the Honda power unit finally produces the performance Dennis/Arai claim that it can produce, they can go nuts.WaikeCU wrote:Can somebody shine some light why Mclaren went in on a Mclaren-Honda partnership? Why did they leave Mercedes-Benz? I don't think Mercedes-Benz were in fault for having bad results starting from when Hamilton left Mclaren. I seriously think that Mclaren were overconfident and just didn't deliver a decent chassis/car that suited the PU. I think much of that has to do with the Hamilton factor out there. I think he has a fair share in developing a car, in which he's exceptional. After he left, I think Mclaren struggled to find a similar character. Perez wasn't the answer and Magnussen was too inexperience perhaps. They had the best PU out there and yet the performance was poor for Mclaren standards. They took the risk of going long term with Honda and it turned out very sour with the Honda PU being the worst of the field. By he looks of it, they seem to have sorted out chassis issues. It seems a big improvement, but imagined they still had a Mercedes PU. I would expect them to be fighting with Williams and Force India, but instead they are now falling behind badly and that brings financial consequences.