Mclaren Honda 2015

[WaikeCU]

What about in-house development? If I can recall correctly, their current roadcars are in-house developed engines. Probably would be too expensive to do that, but I think the technical alignment would be better off.

[Thunder]

Their Road Car Engines are from Ricardo. Afaik it's the ERS that comes from McLaren.

I doubt McLaren has neither the in depth knowledge nor the Facilities to make their own Engines.

[proteus]

Can somebody shine some light why Mclaren went in on a Mclaren-Honda partnership? Why did they leave Mercedes-Benz? I don't think Mercedes-Benz were in fault for having bad results starting from when Hamilton left Mclaren. I seriously think that Mclaren were overconfident and just didn't deliver a decent chassis/car that suited the PU. I think much of that has to do with the Hamilton factor out there. I think he has a fair share in developing a car, in which he's exceptional. After he left, I think Mclaren struggled to find a similar character. Perez wasn't the answer and Magnussen was too inexperience perhaps. They had the best PU out there and yet the performance was poor for Mclaren standards. They took the risk of going long term with Honda and it turned out very sour with the Honda PU being the worst of the field. By he looks of it, they seem to have sorted out chassis issues. It seems a big improvement, but imagined they still had a Mercedes PU. I would expect them to be fighting with Williams and Force India, but instead they are now falling behind badly and that brings financial consequences.

There are two main reasons:

1. Being the number 1 user, with full rights to top spec engine
and
2. Loads of money which Honda is paying on the side to them, i think they are getting even more now for compensation of bad results, due to the underpowered engine...if u look closely, Hondas writing is biggest, besides the Renaults on STR and RedBulls

[motobaleno]

Their Road Car Engines are from Ricardo. Afaik it's the ERS that comes from McLaren.

I doubt McLaren has neither the in depth knowledge nor the Facilities to make their own Engines.

actually the choiche of honda is to be seen in a global strategy involving the furniture of specifically projected engines for future mclaren road cars. in this sense, honda sounds much more good than mercedes (that, in some way could be viewed as a (partial) competitor for mclaren road cars)....while honda is known as a superb engine manufacturer but their cars fulfil only the lower segment of the market.
Otherwise mclaren road cars would be very limited in engine specs and variety, as in fact presently is.

[Jolle]

Can somebody shine some light why Mclaren went in on a Mclaren-Honda partnership? Why did they leave Mercedes-Benz? I don't think Mercedes-Benz were in fault for having bad results starting from when Hamilton left Mclaren. I seriously think that Mclaren were overconfident and just didn't deliver a decent chassis/car that suited the PU. I think much of that has to do with the Hamilton factor out there. I think he has a fair share in developing a car, in which he's exceptional. After he left, I think Mclaren struggled to find a similar character. Perez wasn't the answer and Magnussen was too inexperience perhaps. They had the best PU out there and yet the performance was poor for Mclaren standards. They took the risk of going long term with Honda and it turned out very sour with the Honda PU being the worst of the field. By he looks of it, they seem to have sorted out chassis issues. It seems a big improvement, but imagined they still had a Mercedes PU. I would expect them to be fighting with Williams and Force India, but instead they are now falling behind badly and that brings financial consequences.

There are two main reasons:

1. Being the number 1 user, with full rights to top spec engine
and
2. Loads of money which Honda is paying on the side to them, i think they are getting even more now for compensation of bad results, due to the underpowered engine...if u look closely, Hondas writing is biggest, besides the Renaults on STR and RedBulls

First off, the problems McLaren have the last few years started off making bad decisions for the development of the 2013 car. In F1 these days, you can't design a whole new car every year (because of the limit on CFD and tunnel time). In 2012 they had a pretty good car, HAM could have been WC if it wasn't broken half of the time. Witmarsh (and Dennis) tried to do a 1988 in 2013, by designing a whole new concept in the last year of old rules while everybody else was already putting their time more into 2014. So they had a half developed car in 2013, a half developed car in 2014 and now, in 2015, again a whole new concept, behing behind on aero on a year on Redbull and Ferrari and two on Mercedes.

So to have a winning car again, they needed something different then Mercedes, they would never catch them with a Mercedes engine. The sooner the new Honda concept is on the road, even with a non functional PU, the better. It gives time to catch up with the chassis and aero.

With all the limitations, going the wrong way puts you on a slow path for years, McLaren just turned around and took the right road again, but wil be paying the 2012 price for a few more years.

RedBull have/had more or less the same problem. In 2013 they decided to develop the 2013 car instead of the 2014 car.

But time is running out for Dennis. He's been saying for two years now that a new titel sponsor is imminent and during those two years the rest of his sponsors are walking away while he has the most expensive drivers on the grid.

It's pretty clear he has the two world champions to bring in sponsors, sporting wise it wouldn't matter to have those few tenths extra that those drivers give, but no sponsors are attracted.

So.... what will Dennis do?

[Jolle]

Their Road Car Engines are from Ricardo. Afaik it's the ERS that comes from McLaren.

I doubt McLaren has neither the in depth knowledge nor the Facilities to make their own Engines.

actually the choiche of honda is to be seen in a global strategy involving the furniture of specifically projected engines for future mclaren road cars. in this sense, honda sounds much more good than mercedes (that, in some way could be viewed as a (partial) competitor for mclaren road cars)....while honda is known as a superb engine manufacturer but their cars fulfil only the lower segment of the market.
Otherwise mclaren road cars would be very limited in engine specs and variety, as in fact presently is.

I disagree, McLaren has set the trend to have a relative small ICE basis for the whole range. AMG has build their 4.0 V8 turbo to power their whole range with different turbo settings, bellypans and prob hybrid systems in the near future. Ferrari has build their 3,9 v8 turbo to first power the GTB and having a bigger role next the v12's.

[mrluke]

MGU-H is used primarily as a wastegate of the turbine harvestings energy on the straights and deploying it to compressor on corners exits when the turbine is not spinning fast enough. If it harvest excessive energy this energy is passed to the ES or directly to MGU-K. Arai speaks that "MGU-H is applied more time on the straight" when actually MGU-H should harvesting, not deploying. The only reason for that is if MGU-K has not enough available energy harvested and stored in ES. The energy in ES is coming from MGU-K during the braking and from MGU-H on the straights. Now, if for some reason MGU-K is not harvesting enough energy this will leave a gap in ES that should be filled by MGU-H. This will affect the primarily purpose of MGU-H to assist the turbine on the corners exits. My guess is that because of this they can not deploy full 160 hp from ERS on the straights. As you see this explanation weights on a problem with MGU-K, not MGU-H. We should remember that the first major issue that they encountered in the preseason tests was the MGU-K seal.
.

I think you need to review your understanding the mgu-h function.

The MGU-h cannot pass energy from turbine to compressor. It can transfer energy to either the MGU-k or the ES (battery) thats it.

It is true that the mgu-h can transfer to the ES and then from the ES back to the compressor to keep the boost up when off throttle but there is no direct link.

The power units have a "self sustaining" condition wherein under full throttle the excess boost pressure is harvested by the mgu-h and energy sent straight to the mgu-k without involving the ES at all.

There is evidence from the Monza GP that Mercedes have so much of this "excess boost" to harvest that they can power the MGU-k to its full 160bhp limit AND also recharge the ES.

In contrast Honda cannot keep the MGU-k running over the full length of the straight, they appear to be charging the ES for most of the lap and then deploying it on the straights until it is empty. It is the "self sustaining" mode that appears to be the biggest weaknesses of their PU.

[diffuser]

Nope, It's lack of testing.

They didn't have the PU ready till that first PR test in November 2014. It didn't go so well but the did get some running. The second PR test was a complete disaster. They didn't test again till February at which time they had a ton of issues. If they had unlimited testing, they would have been able to iron out many issues before the first race. The other thing I hear is that lead time on PU parts are alot longer that chassis/aero parts. 3 test in around a months time, If you have major issues, you'll never get fixes implemented for the last test.

Question: How would you be able to tell the difference between lack of testing (i.e. having the PU ready 2 weeks early and waiting for the test session) vs lack of resources/time (i.e. barely having the PU in a runnable state for the test)?

Moreover, their issues have been strictly performance-related, something which is gauged on the dyno, you don't need official F1 tests to tell you that your ERS is not capable of recovering more than X MJ from the turbo. Just compare the state of their PU in January 2015 at the first test with Mercedes' just a year before.

They lacked the time, they lacked the experience, they lacked the OEM power of Mercedes. And now, besides that, they lack the ability to change the components of their PU because of the tokens. It's ridiculous. Unless you want to cheat and bring in a sister company, the token system gives you only one chance to get it right.

I guess it is hard to answer the question without knowing inside information. I agree both those issues would appear similar from the outside.

Yeah, not sure about strictly performance issues when you consider the number of DNFs they've had.

I get the impression that they had no clue how much energy they needed to be recovering to be successful. I think they do now. (which lends credence to your lack of experience point).

The token limitation is only a limit for the 2015 season. That will not be an issue for next year. 25 tokens is enough to completely redesign the PU.

[motobaleno]

I disagree, McLaren has set the trend to have a relative small ICE basis for the whole range. AMG has build their 4.0 V8 turbo to power their whole range with different turbo settings, bellypans and prob hybrid systems in the near future. Ferrari has build their 3,9 v8 turbo to first power the GTB and having a bigger role next the v12's.

That's true, but I don't think it is in contrast with what I wrote...
It is a matter of fact that who buy a supercar want some kind of pedigree and prestige in the engine...
presently among potential mclaren buyers there are "rumors" (I don't know if this is the right word) that the monoblock
of their 3.8 derives from a truck engine...(maybe that's not true eh! but the rumors exists)...
honda is perhaps the only brand that could grant top prestige and pedigree in their engines without interfering with mclaren with a car production too much high level.

[Jolle]

I disagree, McLaren has set the trend to have a relative small ICE basis for the whole range. AMG has build their 4.0 V8 turbo to power their whole range with different turbo settings, bellypans and prob hybrid systems in the near future. Ferrari has build their 3,9 v8 turbo to first power the GTB and having a bigger role next the v12's.

That's true, but I don't think it is in contrast with what I wrote...
It is a matter of fact that who buy a supercar want some kind of pedigree and prestige in the engine...
presently among potential mclaren buyers there are "rumors" (I don't know if this is the right word) that the monoblock
of their 3.8 derives from a truck engine...(maybe that's not true eh! but the rumors exists)...
honda is perhaps the only brand that could grant top prestige and pedigree in their engines without interfering with mclaren with a car production too much high level.

It's the first time I heard those rumors, but it wouldn't surprise me that Ricardo started off with a truck engine, where else would you have the data on compact big bore turbocharged engines that are driven to 100% of their capabilities for a million miles without breaking down? Most companies go to specialists when it comes to those key components. Mercury outboard motors designed parts of some corvette engine is i'm not mistaken. Rotax is hired lots of times for engine development, especially in cars like these.

I think the lifespan of the 3.8v8 is at least 10 - 15 years before they completely redesign it. Just like any other manufacturer

[diffuser]

Yup, Honda had the same concept as Ferrari exactly. Ferrari may not have had a size zero but their exact plan was to minimise the engine in favour of the chassis/aero design. They didn't think mgu-h harvesting was key and thus made the package smaller by compromising the turbine/compressor/mgu-h layout, size and general design.

Everybody tries to minimize the PU size, Not just Ferrari and Honda. You make it sounds like Ferrari's packaging doubled in size this year. If anything it got smaller.

I agree with "They didn't think mgu-h harvesting was key". They could have made the same changes Prior to 2014 but didn't think they were needed until they saw what Merc was doing. Ferrari didn't even have heat shielding on their exhaust pipes for more than half of the 2014 season. I know all the hype that came out in 2014 of why they were underpowered and Ferrari saying it was cause of the sizing. I don't believe any of it. It was just a case of Merc doing it better, or an over site on Ferrari's behalf. In the end, they're both the same answers.


I think the same applies to Honda, they lacked the knowledge of how much energy recovery they'd need from the MGU-H to be effective.

[WaikeCU]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120711

I think Mclaren could well be in trouble if Manor signs a deal with Mercedes for PU's. The word is that if Renault buys Lotus, Lotus won't be having Mercedes PU's next season, which means Mercedes will have an open slot to provide PU's for a 4th team. If it goes through, then there's also a chance that we could see Pascal Wehrlein in a Manor next season. This would also mean that whereas Ferrari has a satellite team in Haas F1, Manor would be Mercedes' satellite team.

Wehrlein not in a Force India? That's because Force India might have refused to be Mercedes' satellite team.

Exciting times...

[Moose]

I think Mclaren could well be in trouble if Manor signs a deal with Mercedes for PU's.

Why would they be in trouble? By all accounts, the issue with the Honda engine is similar to the 2014 Ferrari engine. Look how much they managed to turn things around in 1 year.

[j.yank]

I think you need to review your understanding the mgu-h function.

The MGU-h cannot pass energy from turbine to compressor. It can transfer energy to either the MGU-k or the ES (battery) thats it.

It is true that the mgu-h can transfer to the ES and then from the ES back to the compressor to keep the boost up when off throttle but there is no direct link.

The power units have a "self sustaining" condition wherein under full throttle the excess boost pressure is harvested by the mgu-h and energy sent straight to the mgu-k without involving the ES at all.

There is evidence from the Monza GP that Mercedes have so much of this "excess boost" to harvest that they can power the MGU-k to its full 160bhp limit AND also recharge the ES.

In contrast Honda cannot keep the MGU-k running over the full length of the straight, they appear to be charging the ES for most of the lap and then deploying it on the straights until it is empty. It is the "self sustaining" mode that appears to be the biggest weaknesses of their PU.

Yes, I fully agree with you, I just didn't mention that the energy from MGU-H harvesting from turbine must be stored in ES before to be used later by the compressor. The same is for the direct transfer from MGU-H to MGU-K. But after reading the Arai's words I am not sure that the problem is in MGU-H. Could be MGU-K not generating enough energy and that's why requiring extra generation from MGU-H. If MGU-H compensates on the straight the lack of energy from ES then it will generate less energy for turbo boost in the exits. Also, I am not sure how much energy it can pass to MGU-K on the straight. Just guessing.

[WaikeCU]

I think Mclaren could well be in trouble if Manor signs a deal with Mercedes for PU's.

Why would they be in trouble? By all accounts, the issue with the Honda engine is similar to the 2014 Ferrari engine. Look how much they managed to turn things around in 1 year.

I certainly hope they do, because they are nowhere near where they should be.

But Manor having Mercedes PU's at their use would be a boost.