Mclaren Honda 2015

[Wazari]

Bringing in a translator, especially at public events is somewhat frowned upon by most Japanese companies. It's really a difficult thing to explain but mostly cultural. They almost rather have others mistranslate things rather than have the possibility of one their own possible get something wrong.

Ah, Goto-san, I worked for him at Honda. I highly doubt he would be hired by Honda to be a translator. Last I heard he was working with Shell Oil to work on a high efficiency commuter car. He didn't exactly leave Honda on good terms. I really liked the man, but he was a rebel. He went to Ferrari at the same time I went to Toyota. The Ferrari V-12's of the early 90's might as well been Honda's built by Ferrari.

From what I understand, the two designs are basically the same PU with two different footprints.

[alexx_88]

@diffuser: Sorry for misinterpreting your post in that case.

Regarding what you said, it seems that English-speaking senior personnel is at a premium at Honda. We don't know how the corporate dynamics in the PU department work at Honda (maybe Wazari can shed some light again), but I presume Arai was a respected leader, good engineer and it would've been hard to look any further than him when they chose the manager of the project.

Tbh, I rate him quite highly, he didn't have the time that the other manufacturers did and was forced to work mostly with engineers who had limited F1 experience, but, given the circumstances, they still produced a decent effort for the first year. The communication problem is quite serious I think, to the average F1 fan he now appears to have lost touch with reality after being reported as saying that they'll have a PU equivalent to Ferrari's and better than Renault's. Not to mention the other stuff from the first half of the season

[Abarth]

I don't think (or hope) we're talking about completely different PU Designs but more slight Variations of the same Design route to see what's best for the Future.

If by this point in time they dont understand what the best design route is then its bad news. They're only 6 months away from the 2016 season.

If Mclaren Honda win a race next season I'll happily be stripped of all my upvotes.

For someone called "Facts Only" You've gone off on quite the rant with no idea what's in those 2 designs.

In fact, these two designs could well be one with fewer compromises regarding packaging than the other, just to be able to show McLaren the difference with hard performance measurements rather than simulations and extrapolations.

Could well be the result of their perhaps a little strained relationship, where McLaren is not believing anything anymore, unless they have hard "facts only"

[VFC_Cipher]

I'm getting a bit confused with the McLaren threads... I thought this was for discussions about the team as a whole, with a specific thread for discussions about the car, but there seems a huge amount of crossover?

I couldn't agree more, but to asks the mods at this point to clean nearly 700 pages of forum across 3 topics, Car Thread, Team Thread, and Engine Thread is unrealistic. That isn't a stab at Writinglife just my opinion. I regularly check all three topics as there is some crossover but not all info comes across to all three. Wazari's commentary and insight into Honda corporate culture and his experience and contacts makes whatever thread he is posting in the most valuable, IMO.

[Thunder18]

Boullier is in Sakura now, so we'll what statements are made come Friday.

[turbof1]

I don't think (or hope) we're talking about completely different PU Designs but more slight Variations of the same Design route to see what's best for the Future.

If by this point in time they dont understand what the best design route is then its bad news. They're only 6 months away from the 2016 season.

If Mclaren Honda win a race next season I'll happily be stripped of all my upvotes.

For someone called "Facts Only" You've gone off on quite the rant with no idea what's in those 2 designs.

Well, this is one of such cases were you are talking to someone who actually knows pretty well what's inside the competition, let's leave it at that .

I don't think FO tried to insinuate what's inside those designs, nor does he try to make any point of that. We can assume however there's no silver bullet, no golden ticket out there to propel Honda from their current position to the front of the grid. It's perfectly reasonable these 2 designs both will tackle their current issues, but Mercedes, Ferrari and even Renault will develop too. They are shooting at a moving target, and I share the opinion of FO that they are not going to compete for victories next season. A breakthrough for their issues, sure, but not suddenly turning the power deficit into a surplus.

FO is right about the timescale: by now they have to know what's the best design route. If they are still trying to figure that out, then they'll be rushing the actual design yet again with a high chance for new or old issues. This is of course an "if". As I saw reported here, these 2 engines designs have variations, but essentially follow the same concepts. Let's simply hope Honda knows what generally the best approach is, and is otherwise just searching for the best power to drag ratio.

[kptaylor]

In fact, these two designs could well be one with fewer compromises regarding packaging than the other, just to be able to show McLaren the difference with hard performance measurements rather than simulations and extrapolations.

Could well be the result of their perhaps a little strained relationship, where McLaren is not believing anything anymore, unless they have hard "facts only"

This is what I'm thinking, too. Design #1 adhering to McLaren packaging restrictions and #2 showing the power increase if they build a slightly larger engine.

[McG]

I could go without the technical engine chatter to be honest. Just my personal opinion but these engines bore the hell out of me and I don't like reading about them in the team thread whatsoever.

[Wazari]

@diffuser: Sorry for misinterpreting your post in that case.

Regarding what you said, it seems that English-speaking senior personnel is at a premium at Honda. We don't know how the corporate dynamics in the PU department work at Honda (maybe Wazari can shed some light again), but I presume Arai was a respected leader, good engineer and it would've been hard to look any further than him when they chose the manager of the project.

Tbh, I rate him quite highly, he didn't have the time that the other manufacturers did and was forced to work mostly with engineers who had limited F1 experience, but, given the circumstances, they still produced a decent effort for the first year. The communication problem is quite serious I think, to the average F1 fan he now appears to have lost touch with reality after being reported as saying that they'll have a PU equivalent to Ferrari's and better than Renault's. Not to mention the other stuff from the first half of the season

Based on personal experience the scenario probably went something like this:

Coming from Ito, Arai, we have decided to enter the F1 arena again and you have been chosen to head up the project. Your pay will be 5 to 6 times its current level. You will live, breathe and eat F1. You will not sleep in your own bed nor see your family for more than 2/3rds of the year. You will work closely with McLaren and put out the best product possible. We have assembled a team of engineers and managers for you. Will you take the position?

Arai: Yes of course, I would be honored to....

Ito or one his staff, BTW, we're going racing in 2015....

Arai, with a smile on his face, "I look forward to the challenge..." Deep down he's thinking, how in the hell are we going to pull this one off???

The corporate structure at Honda as with must other Japanese companies is very rigid. Responsibilities are clearly defined and you are expected to go way beyond your own responsibilities. This resolve is what has made companies like Honda achieve success in the past. This rigidness has also, IMO, hampered the creative process to a certain degree. I can't fathom Honda giving up on the F1 program after competing for only one season. That is simply not in their nature unless McLaren cuts them off and there are no other takers. I really believe Honda will rebound from this debacle of a season thus far. I also believe both McLaren and Honda are both to blame 50-50.

[PlatinumZealot]

Honda F1 Movie 2015.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRDluXz ... e=youtu.be

Wicked Video.

I still find that they don't loose that much engine length with that Honking oil tank out front. They should bring the compressor to the front and bite a peice out of the oil tank like Mercedes.

Another thing I noticed was that the instructions in the engine assembly manual are in English!! surely this is not the real manual?

[PlatinumZealot]

I'm getting a bit confused with the McLaren threads... I thought this was for discussions about the team as a whole, with a specific thread for discussions about the car, but there seems a huge amount of crossover?

Yes.. because the engines sucks so hard, it is like a big black hole drawing in everything around it. lol

I get your point though the engine has overshadowed everything.

[Wazari]

Honda F1 Movie 2015.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRDluXz ... e=youtu.be

Wicked Video.

I still find that they don't loose that much engine length with that Honking oil tank out front. They should bring the compressor to the front and bite a peice out of the oil tank like Mercedes.

Another thing I noticed was that the instructions in the engine assembly manual are in English!! surely this is not the real manual?

Maybe you're on to something for 2016 .

All the technical manuals are in English as that is the international language for F1. If a McLaren technician in Wokking needed to look up a certain spec, he would understand the manual.

[diffuser]

Honda F1 Movie 2015.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRDluXz ... e=youtu.be

Wicked Video.

I still find that they don't loose that much engine length with that Honking oil tank out front. They should bring the compressor to the front and bite a peice out of the oil tank like Mercedes.

Another thing I noticed was that the instructions in the engine assembly manual are in English!! surely this is not the real manual?

The technician was typing on qwerty keyboard. I didn't see which one but it wasn't Japanese.

[Sasha]

Honda F1 Movie 2015.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRDluXz ... e=youtu.be

Wicked Video.

I still find that they don't loose that much engine length with that Honking oil tank out front. They should bring the compressor to the front and bite a peice out of the oil tank like Mercedes.

Another thing I noticed was that the instructions in the engine assembly manual are in English!! surely this is not the real manual?

Maybe you're on to something for 2016 .

All the technical manuals are in English as that is the international language for F1. If a McLaren technician in Wokking needed to look up a certain spec, he would understand the manual.

And now Honda's business language as of this year.So to work for Honda in the future must understand english(written and verbal).

[diffuser]

Well, this is one of such cases were you are talking to someone who actually knows pretty well what's inside the competition, let's leave it at that .

I don't think FO tried to insinuate what's inside those designs, nor does he try to make any point of that. We can assume however there's no silver bullet, no golden ticket out there to propel Honda from their current position to the front of the grid. It's perfectly reasonable these 2 designs both will tackle their current issues, but Mercedes, Ferrari and even Renault will develop too. They are shooting at a moving target, and I share the opinion of FO that they are not going to compete for victories next season. A breakthrough for their issues, sure, but not suddenly turning the power deficit into a surplus.

FO is right about the timescale: by now they have to know what's the best design route. If they are still trying to figure that out, then they'll be rushing the actual design yet again with a high chance for new or old issues. This is of course an "if". As I saw reported here, these 2 engines designs have variations, but essentially follow the same concepts. Let's simply hope Honda knows what generally the best approach is, and is otherwise just searching for the best power to drag ratio.

Maybe, but the comments he made didn't live up to his reputation.
Condemning Honda for making 2 designs solutions for 1 or more possible PU issues and comparing it to 10 designs they made for some nose over a decade ago was in MY opinion weak. So, I called him out on it.