Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

[modbaraban]

Do they just mail them an engine without ANY information or data on it?

They mail the motorists in the same box

[manchild]

What a rubbish post.

Oh, well you're just opening your mouth uselessly.

They mail the motorists in the same box

Nice of you to explain him the basics. I really love the pros that are experts in their area of expertise but clueless elsewhere (arrogant too).

[modbaraban]

What a rubbish post.

Oh, well you're just opening your mouth uselessly.

Oh c'mon manchild. You can do better than that.

PS: the argument about Toyota, STR and SAF1 was fair, imo. I see your point. Others being guilty doesn't make McLaren innocent tho. I'm quite 'unhappy' (damn wrong word to use here) with Max and FIA. This have to be changed. But who can do that? And when? I think it a great time to press the 'reset' button for the sport to start a new era.

PS: can any1 answer my question about sandwitch shassis (top of this page)?

[manchild]

I've never said that Mclaren is innocent because others are guilty. I said that all who brake the rules should be treated the same. If FIA doesn't want to punish all guilty ones than it had no right to punish Mclaren.

[axle]

Indeed punishing all teams for indiscretions/blatent proven cheating is the only way forward. And making an example of 1 now and again (BAR Honda with their fuel tanks etc) isn't good enough, especially when the cheat extrodinarie's get away with it everytime!!

[Rob W]

What a rubbish post.

If no team can have any other teams' data, then how the hell do teams supply engines to others? Do they just mail them an engine without ANY information or data on it?

Engines are allowed - (as are buying the same brake pads, cables, bolts, paint from the same supplier).

With engine integration there is a technical assistance component for sure - but it stops where the engine bolts onto the car.

Rob W

[Rob W]

sorry if this has already been posted but...

"On 21 March, de la Rosa emailed Coughlan asking for information about the Ferrari’s weight distribution, saying “it would be important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator” and adding that “I will be in the simulator tomorrow”.

...When Alonso questioned the reliability of the data, de la Rosa replied: “All the information from Ferrari is very reliable.

Nice post djones. It seems from reading this, and I accept it's not all of their conversations, that De la Rosa was the point man in all of this. Alonso's skepticism in the reliability of the info is evident here.

If a driver were to be offered data from the test driver purporting to be the magic pill they needed to sort a particular issue then they would be stupid to not accept it - that is unless the test driver says "it's from xxxx team" - in which case a person with integrity would/should question it. How do we know this part of the conversation(s) wasn't edited out in the article? It suits a journalist's purpose to use the info that supports their line and edit out the stuff that doesn't. How do we know that Alonso and Hamilton didn't complain to Ron or Martin Whitmarsh about being offered the info?

For what it's worth also, we don't know that the testing set-up which De La Rosa offered wasn't identical to the set-up Alonso had come up with and had been using himself already.. Granted, checking your data with that of another team is against the rules, but it isn't as bad as wholesale copying of them in my books - far less of a performance enhancing factor than say simply taking photos of another car's aero any day of the week on a test track.

Rob W

[mikep99]

How do we know this part of the conversation(s) wasn't edited out in the article? It suits a journalist's purpose to use the info that supports their line and edit out the stuff that doesn't. How do we know that Alonso and Hamilton didn't complain to Ron or Martin Whitmarsh about being offered the info?

For what it's worth also, we don't know that the testing set-up which De La Rosa offered wasn't identical to the set-up Alonso had come up with and had been using himself already..
Rob W

How do we know ......... How do we know....... Are you for real? How do we know your not a martian ? Please stop all this crap and just admit they and GUILTY as sin & a big bunch of lying looses.
Ferrari will win a DESERVED WCC this year but McLaren WILL win a TAINTED WDC this year.

How Do I Know ………… How Do I Know…………. THE INDEFUTABLE EVIDENCE

[allan]

To be honest, even though mclaren drivers clearly benefited from those info, im really happy that they weren't punished.. Simply bcoz that would have messed up the whole season (which is already kind of a mess). However, im crossing my fingers that Alonso won't be the champion... I wonder what manchild would have said if MS was in Alonso place
HIMILTON ALL THE WAY!!!! HE IS THE 2007 CHAMPION!

[Tom]

I would like to see a source for that quote djones, it sounds very convenient don't you think? I find it very hard to believe that De La Rosa would include so much information in an e-mail, esspecially:

When Alonso questioned the reliability of the data, de la Rosa replied: “All the information from Ferrari is very reliable.

“It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic – I don’t know what place he holds now.

“He’s the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi [Raikkonen] was stopping in lap 18.

“He’s very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our chief designer, and he told him that.”"

It just seems like exactly what Ferrari and the FIA wanted to hear, he clearly states the information is from Ferrari, states Stepney's name and position within the Ferrai team, (surely not information that Alonso would find particularely interesting and therefore De La Rosa would feel the need to include in his e-mail) then he follows with a very detailed fact, De La Rosa could have just said: "He’s the same person who told us what lap Kimi would stop on." but he specifically mentions the exact lap, data which would not be hard to find after the event.

This is the bit I like best and immediately sets off very loud alarm bells for me...

He’s very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our chief designer, and he told him that.

Almost as if Fernando Alonso would not know the name of the chief designer of his own team, while members of this forum, mear fans, could recognised the name. Again De La Rosa feels the need to spell it out for Alonso and coincidently reinforce evidence against the Mclaren team in court. It just fits together too well, you could say its tailor made to go with Ferrari's complaints and the court case.

[FLC]

The source is the official release by the FIA, and you can read it on almost every F1 news site. It includes not only the e-mails, but McLaren's explanations to pretty much everything (funny for the most part, insulting for the rest), and I would assume that if even the smallest part of it was made up or untrue we would have heard about it by now from their lawyers.

By the way, the emails could have well been translated from Spanish.

But let me save it for you. IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!

[allan]

Didn't u read the FIA report Tom?
It seems than most of the people in this forum didn't!!!

[RacingManiac]

So what if Ron Dennis tipped off FIA about their own offence? He is also the same person who cried foul about the appeal, and cried foul again when they got their just(if not reduced) penalty for a CLEAR TRANSGRESSION that have been committed by his team. It either means he is aware of the situation, allowing it to happen, therefore he is just as guilty as the rest of them(does a premeditated murderer who turned himself in makes him innocient?), or he has lost his ability to lead his team of integrity to kept their integrity and therefore no longer fit to manage his people....

I am quite annoyed by the fact that even McLaren here clearly have been the guilty party, people can still manage to spin this such that Ferrari is the main culprit of the problem and they should really just shut up and played the role of a deserved victim....because clearly McLaren is such a paragon and beacon for all that is just and a symbol of sportsmanship and integrity.....

[riff_raff]

A $100million fine and kicked out for 2007? $100million is a lot of money even for Ron Dennis.

Plus what they'll have to reimburse their sponsors for non-performance on their sponsorship contracts.

And think about the loss of any future sponsorship. No self-respecting company will want to be associated with cheaters. (I know, I know....it's only cheating if you get caught, right? But they got caught.)

And of course, I'm sure Ferrari will pursue legal action in court for civil damages. Think about it: we're talking industrial espionage here. This could have financial repercussions on all of McLaren's business enterprises, throughout the EU.

Nope, I'll bet Ron Dennis & Co. pack it in. McLaren is through in F1.

[mikep99]

Seeing that McLaren are guilty. They should be made to change the Livery on the car for the last few races, to honour there engineering partners.



Only fair I think.