VW cheat emissions test with "defeat device"

[bhall II]

Incoming bhall post......

Back on your soapbox again?

Apparently, we can take your assertions with a grain of salt.

Gnite.

I must admit, your rhetoric makes it tempting. But, I've said my piece, and you've positively annihilated a poor, defenseless straw man. What's left for us to do?

Good talk!

[autogyro]

News Flash

Everybody does it =D>

[Ultra]

Nice edit. I'm sure you enjoyed that link I shared. Another successful pre-post here at the Ultra News Channel.

Peace.

UNC. All the news that fits.

---------------

News Flash

Everybody does it =D>

We have a winner!!!!!

[CBeck113]

You can call a turd a diamond all you like. You can paint it and shine it up if it suits your whims.

It'll still be a turd.

The law you accuse them of breaking is a non-constitutional. It is nothing more than another of the EPA’s politically-motivated, special interest-benefiting mandates. Congress did not legislate the ppm of diesel particulate emissions. The very first article of the constitution, the very first section:

"All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives."


Hence, only congress has the power to legislate. Not the executive. The rule of law is the constitution and the government doesn't even bother to follow it. Here, EPA is legislating via executive fiat. That, mon frere, is not constitutional.

The federal government passes many laws and does many things that are clearly unconstitutional. The Iraq war, the drug war, the alphabet soup of executive agencies, and on and on.

Can you show me where in the constitution the federal government is empowered to pass "environmental laws?" Have you read the document? Especially the 10th amendment....

The "democratic process" is mob rule and nothing more. If 50%+1 vote to kill all the first born sons, that doesn't make it right. We don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic. A big distinction you clearly fail to make, due solely to your idealism.

Speaking of context, your GM link states they received the maximum fine "for a recall delay." Can you find where the government pursued them for selling defective vehicles that kill people? Oh, you glossed over that distinction as well. Didn't suit the context of your assertions, I imagine.


Look, VW did a very stupid thing. I don't disagree. But for you to sit there and act like justice will be served because of the EPA. That is just pure, unadulterated nonsense. GM and the families of the dead don't get justice. The Feds don't do justice. They arbitrarily punish in whatever manner suits them. VW has decided to build a factory in Russia. That isn't gonna sit well with the DC crowd. That is motivating them to stick it to VW and hard.

35 million for over 100 dead.

18 billion for a few ppm over an arbitrary amount decided solely by a bureaucrat.

Nope, no ulterior motives here. Nothing to see. Just move along.

Good reading, if you can bring yourself to click the link:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/vo ... gn-policy/

So, in essence VW should get a pat on the back and a "thanks for lying to numerous governments and 11 Million customers"? Tea Party FTW

[Ultra]

So, in essence VW should get a pat on the back and a "thanks for lying to numerous governments and 11 Million customers"? Tea Party FTW

I never said that and I never affiliated with any party. I think VW should get the same justice GM got. Otherwise, it isn't justice. It's arbitrary and capricious punishment and nothing more.

I wonder what all those VW factory workers will do for jobs after the US government finishes putting VW out of business.

[R_Redding]

There could be quite a few manufacturers caught out by this.

The emission software used is actually written by Bosch , part of their emission control system ... and has been sold to many ,if not most of the manufacturers.
The software package has the calibration / defeat switch in it as standard , and Bosch warn users not to use the software in the way VW did.


I have a feeling that US Oil would be happy if diesel is killed off in the US .... as the legislation gets ever stricter ,the diesel needs to be cleaner and cleaner for the emissions technology to comply... which will cost heavily in refinery upgrades and modifications.

Rob

[SiLo]

Bosch actually told VW back in 2007 to stop using their software that way. I'm wondering if they will due for defamation of their brand.

[theblackangus]

So, in essence VW should get a pat on the back and a "thanks for lying to numerous governments and 11 Million customers"? Tea Party FTW

I never said that and I never affiliated with any party. I think VW should get the same justice GM got. Otherwise, it isn't justice. It's arbitrary and capricious punishment and nothing more.

I wonder what all those VW factory workers will do for jobs after the US government finishes putting VW out of business.

Intention has much to do with crime. GM didn't create their problem on purpose, and may not have recognized cause and effect quickly enough. The various stories about what happened with GM are still unclear. VW did what they did on purpose to get away with monetary gain, that is not unclear. They deceived governments and worse their customers.
There will probably be many governments that are not happy with this depiction, not to mention their customers who now own vehicles that do not perform as advertised. If I was a current VW owner I would be very upset, as a company I spent alot of money with effectively committed fraud against me.

As far as the VW workers are concerned, doubt that any of them will loose their work, unless involved in this fiasco. VW needs to work hard and repair the damage they have done to their brand, that requires good hardworking staff. Anyone that does get let go only has VW to blame as they let this charade go on increasing the risk of large fines by making more and more vehicles that were fraudulently sold to more and more customers. Many of those customers likely wont by another VW.

I love German engineering, but German engineering is about being the best...VW apparently forgot that and took the easy path which no-one admires.

[Ultra]

GM knew they were using defective parts that risked death to their customers and continued to do so with full knowledge of the risk.

That is criminal negligence that rises to the point of homicide. Yet the Dept of Justice (Contradiction in terms) has filed no criminal charges regarding the homocides.

900 million fine for 120 dead.

18 billion for a few ppm of particulate matter.

Nope, no political motivations here.

There isn't enough paint on earth to whitewash that injustice.

--------

The 18 billion is just the beginning. After all the civil suits and other countries fines are figured in, this could easily put VW out of business.

[J.A.W.]

Too funny..

If you really imagine an industrial giant such as VW - will cease operations due to this.. then you don't understand business..
Frankly, tbis is the case, although diesels are filthy machines, & don't properly belong in cars & non-industrial vehicles..
..when CARB-type ( EURO-X) sanctions are in force, or pending..

[bhall II]

GM's $900 million settlement was part of a deferred prosecution agreement with the Justice Department based upon the only crimes committed...

[U.S. Attorney Preet] Bharara said he understands victims' families might be disappointed that no individuals were arrested. But he said there is no law with specific criminal penalties for failing to disclose auto safety problems.

Without such a statute, prosecutors had to rely on broader laws covering false statements and wire fraud, he said.

"We apply the laws as we find them, not the way we wish they might be," he said.

Would you rather the government bring charges for crimes that don't exist? Imagine the uproar.

The case against Volkswagen stems from laws that have been on the books for over 40 years under the jurisdiction of an agency whose constitutional authority has been upheld by the Supreme Court. That means it's not directly comparable to GM's case.

Regardless, it's highly unlikely EPA will impose the theoretical maximum fines. Its own guidelines suggest that would be inappropriate.

(Please don't confuse this for a statement of ethical beliefs. My judgment is irrelevant - just like yours.)

[DaveW]

The case against Volkswagen stems from laws that have been on the books for over 40 years under the jurisdiction of an agency whose constitutional authority has been upheld by the Supreme Court.

Your contributions to this thread have been very informative. I have learned much about diesel technology and about the EPA from your posts (& the responses of others). If you started from cold, then I congratulate you.

I have a few comments to make.

I have owned five diesel powered cars. Modern examples are increasingly easy to live with. They have performance to spare and are commendably economical (they regularly match manufacturer's quoted fuel consumption figures on my - easy - daily route). I really can't imagine why anybody would bother with spark ignition.

Nevertheless, & without condoning VAG's (alleged) actions, diesel technology continues to develop as, I am reasonably certain, does the EPA requirements.

You stated that the EPA was "criminally underfunded by Congress", but their document releases don''t appear reflect that. For example, your first reference above was last updated on March 13 2015. It is tempting to ask why and (more importantly, perhaps) how many other documents have been updated?

[Tommy Cookers]

I really can't imagine why I would bother with a diesel (on my tiny annual mileage)

23 years ago European (UK) petrol car economy plummeted (we jumped straight into the 3 way catalyst that prevented lean mixtures)
at that time the diesel needed no catalyst , and so was less uncompetitive on first cost

now diesel has more catalysts and other emission treatment devices than petrol

since particulates and NOx are both stored for intermittent treatment the emissions and consumption vary greatly
the regulators and manufacturers have both been caught out by this

the UK's dominant industry now is asset (property) speculation, driving some of the world's most inflated house prices
so we (again) have a high mileage diesel-motoring population working away from where it can afford to live

how can the diesel be right for Europe, yet wrong for the USA and Japan ?

Europe was subsidising the diesel (in the name of conservation, before global warming had been invented)
because it had a glut of diesel fractions due to the sudden emergence of indigenous natural gas for power generation

[emaren]

My very first company car was a diesel.

A Vauxhall Belmont 1.5D. non turbo.

The thing was epically slow, from memory 0-60 was something like 18 seconds, 2CV's would easily win a drag race.

I used to be able to get it up to 75mph on the M69, it took ~12 miles to do it, but it would manage it.

Slow, noisy, slow, stinky, hateful pile of junk it was. Incredibly nose-heavy, it understeered at a walking pace.

it was stolen once and the police found it a couple of miles away, they summized that the thieves did not realise it was so bad to drive before they stole it.

I've not had a diesel since, it put me off for life, I am still sensitive to the smell, hate the clatter and genuinely feel sorry for those that are forced to drive them.

Hopefully this cluster will advance electric cars !

[CBeck113]

My very first company car was a diesel.

A Vauxhall Belmont 1.5D. non turbo.

The thing was epically slow, from memory 0-60 was something like 18 seconds, 2CV's would easily win a drag race.

I used to be able to get it up to 75mph on the M69, it took ~12 miles to do it, but it would manage it.

Slow, noisy, slow, stinky, hateful pile of junk it was. Incredibly nose-heavy, it understeered at a walking pace.

it was stolen once and the police found it a couple of miles away, they summized that the thieves did not realise it was so bad to drive before they stole it.

I've not had a diesel since, it put me off for life, I am still sensitive to the smell, hate the clatter and genuinely feel sorry for those that are forced to drive them.

Hopefully this cluster will advance electric cars !

While they may not be quite as fun to drive, they are by far the more economical choice if you drive over 15,000km per year (in Germany at least, due to the vehicle tax + fuel tax + insurance cost situation). I have two now, a 2004 Corsa 1.3 CDTi (which I would like to get rid of, and replace with a newer diesel or a roadster) and a 2014 Hyundai i40 sw. It is very comforting to be able to shift at 2500rpm and still have decent acceleration, while traveling 700 to 800km (or more) before refilling. Yes, my pants say get an SL500 or at least a 330i, but I spend about one hour per day in my car, most of it in traffic, so I can't really enjoy those cars much. My brain and bank both say a diesel, so maybe I'll compromise with a 330d....