VW cheat emissions test with "defeat device"

[turbof1]

Engine power will be on a downward slope (just like the value of the car) from the day the vehicle is delivered to you. How will you claim for loss of power?

Benchmarking before and after the update I presume. I don't own a VW, but if I did that's what I would demand if I was forced to do that update.

[Tommy Cookers]

........the NOx emissions regulations in Belgium should be quite looser then in the US. .....

the EU test emissions allowed (in bringing new cars to the market) - afaik they are (for NOx) the same as in the US ?

[FW17]

Engine power will be on a downward slope (just like the value of the car) from the day the vehicle is delivered to you. How will you claim for loss of power?

Benchmarking before and after the update I presume. I don't own a VW, but if I did that's what I would demand if I was forced to do that update.

NOx is a product of lean burn or is it?

So in all probability the top end would not change.

[turbof1]

&Tommy: I was being told they were less strict. It could be wrong however. I was under the impression EU was more stringent on CO2 emissions but less on NOx, with US vice versa. But again, it might be incorrect.

@WilliamsF1: I'm by no means an expert, but I believe the NOx is a byproduct simply by burning diesel, like CO2 is a byproduct when burning gasoline. Lean burn will probably cause more NOx emissions, but note that that same lean burn has a higher efficiency and allows for more horsepower. Having a less le burn will drop both fuel economy and power.

[alexx_88]

No, you're right. IIRC, the NOx limit is something like 4-5 times higher in the EU compared to USA. That's for euro 4 and euro 5 ratings.

[ChrisM40]

Hotter stronger combustion generates NOx, that why EGR reduces NOx, it lowers combustion temps.

[bdr529]

If the 'update' resulted in less power and economy them surely the owners have a case for compensation. The car is no longer as described.

What about second hand values? A usual VW strong point. If my car was suddenly worth thousands less id be very upset..

Second hand values that's the point the would have me pissed off if I owned a VW diesel,
The value of your investment has dropped far beyond what normal usage of the vehicle would do.

I'm not sure if this same Tax Credit was offered on the effected cars, If so I'm sure the IRS would like their Money back

Buyers of the upcoming 2009 Jetta TDI sedan and wagon will be eligible for a hefty Federal Tax Credit, according to Volkswagen of America. The IRS has issued a certification for the vehicles, confirming that they meet the requirements for the Advanced Lean Burn Technology Motor Vehicle income-tax break, and will be awarding owners a $1300 credit for their purchase.
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2009-v ... k-car-news

[strad]

Diesel is nasty dirty stuff that we shouldn't be using at all.

I know it doesn't mean too much, but here is an image of the exhaust pipes of my 2 litre VAG diesel car after 52,000 miles. Uncleaned, un-chipped, un-retouched, & in its usual filthy state, as I found today....

Oddly, or not, it's not the soot or black stuff that's the carcinogen. As usual it's the stuff you can't see that kills you.

[DaveW]

Oddly, or not, it's not the soot or black stuff that's the carcinogen. As usual it's the stuff you can't see that kills you.

For what's worth, here is a quote from an abc.net.au article:

The pollution that we care about from diesel - buses, trucks and other diesel engines - is technically called particulate matter. We all know it is soot. It's fine, fine particles that are small enough to get past our throat, past our lungs into the deepest part, the deepest of our lungs, where they trigger asthma attacks, bronchitis, emphysema, heart disease and now of course we've learned cancer."

I'm not exonerating NOx, or indeed the emissions caused by other classes of vehicle and fuels, just trying to get the known facts agreed.

Edit: Arguably, Here is a better article. Published in 2012, it implicates "fine particles", but not NOx.

[Cold Fussion]

If the 'update' resulted in less power and economy them surely the owners have a case for compensation. The car is no longer as described.

What about second hand values? A usual VW strong point. If my car was suddenly worth thousands less id be very upset..

Second hand values that's the point the would have me pissed off if I owned a VW diesel,
The value of your investment has dropped far beyond what normal usage of the vehicle would do.

A normal car is a money sink not an investment. If you buy a car from new, what grounds do you have to be annoyed that the value of your car has dropped as a result of this? At the time you buy it, you cannot be sure of it's value when you decide to sell it.

[autogyro]

I have NEVER bought a new car silly idea.

[Tommy Cookers]

@ Strad, Dave W

some Prof was on the BBC telling us that annually in the UK NOx 'kills' ie causes 6000 deaths to be earlier than otherwise would be
though particulates are the bigger offender
the total of air pollution 'deaths' as above being 29000 - these are stroke or heart problems not just respiratory or cancerous

particulates below 2.5 micron are now seen as the real problem - they travel through the walls of blood vessels eg into brain and heart

29000 slightly accelerated 'deaths' via statistical attribution, this leaving about 1000000 real actual deaths independent of air pollution


we're told for 40 years that PAHs (part-combusted hydrocarbon) are carcinogenic and ingested on particulate (diesel or wood-smoke)
though they are also generated and ingested more conventionally as eg barbecued food
(and we've forgotten the aromatics that for a few years were put in our petrol to maintain Octane No after lead was banned)

now 'they' (semi-officials) have discovered that baking cakes is similarly hazardous
as is cooking with polyunsaturates or monounsaturates (roughly what I have been saying for 40 years)

and we now know that there is no health benefit from replacing saturates with the above
most (in terms of quantity produced) vegetable oil is saturate anyway - it's stable, so it keeps (that's why they grow it)
there's a (no doubt sincere and accidental) conspiracy of denial over this

as there's a conspiracy of denial over emissions (smog) during the growth of oil crops
and emissions from plants indigenous to arid and semi-arid regions (they trap water by covering it in oil or wax or resin)

right now Sumatra is burning 10 million tons of peat to clear land for palm-oil plantations (a leading saturated vegetable oil)
'killer smog' covering millions of sq km
so we and our regulators can see the magic words 'vegetable oil' on food labels

environmentalists (career professionals and amateur) now campaign about 'active Nitrogen', the agricultural equivalent of our NOx
and ignore the natural and proportionate boost to food production from the manmade increase in atmospheric CO2

my generation were rather worried about getting nuked ...

[DaveW]

some Prof was on the BBC telling us that annually in the UK NOx 'kills' ie causes 6000 deaths to be earlier than otherwise

I saw that interview. I was less than impressed - all academic opinions should be peer reviewed....

[Phil]

A normal car is a money sink not an investment. If you buy a car from new, what grounds do you have to be annoyed that the value of your car has dropped as a result of this? At the time you buy it, you cannot be sure of it's value when you decide to sell it.

When I buy a car, I view the car in its entirety as an investment. Not just initial cost of car, but also the cost of taxes, insurance, cost of maintenance, cost of fuel and also how well it holds its value. A typical leasing period is 4 years here - so comparing the respective worth of a car after 4 years across your typical usage/mileage is an easy way to compare cars. Certain brands/cars hold its value better on the 2nd hand market.

So a typical off-the-head calculation may look something like this, assuming a usage of 25k km per year:

+ car price 0km (minus whatever deal you get off the car)
+ aprox maintenance cost per year (typical service etc) * 4
+ aprox insurance cost per year * 4
+ fuel usage (cost) per km * 100'000km
- aprox car worth after 4 years with 100'000km
__________________________________________
diff = total aprox. cost of investment

Of course, I wouldn't compare a Citroen to a Porsche or something, more a like for like between multiple daily commute drives. Speaking of Citroen btw, at least overhere; they don't hold their value well. German cars typically however do; and it'd be one of the reason why I'd be pissed if the 2nd hand worth of your car just significantly decreased due to such a fiasco.


PS: As for your question "At the time you buy it, you cannot be sure of it's value when you decide to sell it" --- if I'm considering a brandnew BMW 335i model year 2015 and want to know how it will be worth in 2019 at a particular km, I'll look at the 2011 model that is on sale now. Typically, despite lots of things changing from model to model year, a certain model will stay within its designated market and thus be reasonably consistent where its price is concerned. All approximation of course, but better than assuming your car will be worth zero $$$ in any case.

[turbof1]

VW CEO Matthias Müller has said today that a software update will only suffice for a part of the cars. Without specifying how many, he told the other part will need changes to the hardware, as in the engine.