VW cheat emissions test with "defeat device"

[DaveW]

For what's worth, the Daily Mail published the following today:

Dr Tate, whose work is funded by the Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs and local councils, has been monitoring diesel emissions on Britain’s roads for five years and has recorded more than one million cars.
His latest research looked at the new Euro Six category diesel engines – which were introduced in September last year. He measured 300 of the newest diesel cars at six locations in England and Scotland over 20 days during the summer.
He found that on average, none of the manufacturers met the Euro Six regulations that state the engines must not produce more than 0.08 grams of NOx per kilometre.
Mazda’s engines emitted the most on average (0.49 grams per km) – 6.1 times the Euro limit. One of its vehicles was found to discharge 1.1 grams per km – 13.75 times the limit. Mazda was bettered by BMW (0.45 grams), Mercedes (0.42 grams), Volkswagen (0.41 grams) and Audi (0.36 grams).
Dr Tate found that Ford’s new diesel engines emitted more NOx on average than all the other manufacturers tested, but in this case Dr Tate said more cars needed to be tested from the manufacturer due to a small sample size.

On that basis (if you believe it), VAG doesn't look too dusty. (What does 0.08 grams of NOx look like?)

[hollus]

What does 0.08 grams of NOx look like?

Roughly like the flask in this video around the 1 minute mark:
https://youtu.be/ZVzrijJdl4c?t=58
Tha flask is maybe twice as big as it should (say 0.15g?) and the content is pure NO2 (NO would be colorless), but you get the idea.

Edit: Not that far off after all. While the exhausts emit mostly NO and very little NO2, almost all the NO is converted to NO2 in the atmospehre within an hour or so:
http://www.apis.ac.uk/overview/pollutan ... ew_NOx.htm

[Phil]

For what's worth, the Daily Mail published the following today:

Dr Tate, whose work is funded by the Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs and local councils, has been monitoring diesel emissions on Britain’s roads for five years and has recorded more than one million cars.
His latest research looked at the new Euro Six category diesel engines – which were introduced in September last year. He measured 300 of the newest diesel cars at six locations in England and Scotland over 20 days during the summer.
He found that on average, none of the manufacturers met the Euro Six regulations that state the engines must not produce more than 0.08 grams of NOx per kilometre.
Mazda’s engines emitted the most on average (0.49 grams per km) – 6.1 times the Euro limit. One of its vehicles was found to discharge 1.1 grams per km – 13.75 times the limit. Mazda was bettered by BMW (0.45 grams), Mercedes (0.42 grams), Volkswagen (0.41 grams) and Audi (0.36 grams).
Dr Tate found that Ford’s new diesel engines emitted more NOx on average than all the other manufacturers tested, but in this case Dr Tate said more cars needed to be tested from the manufacturer due to a small sample size.

On that basis (if you believe it), VAG doesn't look too dusty. (What does 0.08 grams of NOx look like?)

How much is such a test influenced by how the car was driven? I have seriously no idea how NOx is measured, but of course typical usage of any type of emission will strongly vary on how the engine is being used - i.e. full throttle, part throttle, under load, in neutral, at N gear, weight of the car, how inflated the tires are, wind or other type of resistance etc.

A test case like conducted by any health and safety or state department can not take into account every single possibility - so a test-case is only here for the sole purpose of comparing every car under the same set of circumstances and where any specific limit applies?

[absbeginner]

For what's worth, the Daily Mail published the following today:

Dr Tate, whose work is funded by the Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs and local councils, has been monitoring diesel emissions on Britain’s roads for five years and has recorded more than one million cars.
His latest research looked at the new Euro Six category diesel engines – which were introduced in September last year. He measured 300 of the newest diesel cars at six locations in England and Scotland over 20 days during the summer.
He found that on average, none of the manufacturers met the Euro Six regulations that state the engines must not produce more than 0.08 grams of NOx per kilometre.
Mazda’s engines emitted the most on average (0.49 grams per km) – 6.1 times the Euro limit. One of its vehicles was found to discharge 1.1 grams per km – 13.75 times the limit. Mazda was bettered by BMW (0.45 grams), Mercedes (0.42 grams), Volkswagen (0.41 grams) and Audi (0.36 grams).
Dr Tate found that Ford’s new diesel engines emitted more NOx on average than all the other manufacturers tested, but in this case Dr Tate said more cars needed to be tested from the manufacturer due to a small sample size.

On that basis (if you believe it), VAG doesn't look too dusty. (What does 0.08 grams of NOx look like?)

This kind of tests have limited or no meaning.

You cannot measure car emissions with an arbitrary test pattern, you have to adhere to some standard otherwise you'll find yourself with meaningless numbers.

Euro 6 limit refers to cars tested on a standard dynamometer and under determined conditions, if you change those you change the results.

[DaveW]

You cannot measure car emissions with an arbitrary test pattern, you have to adhere to some standard otherwise you'll find yourself with meaningless numbers.

I agree with you, but some might argue that these meaningless numbers were the source of VW's current difficulties.

[langwadt]

The more noisy it is the less efficient it is.
The future is electric.
Shhhhhhhhhhhh

not really - until there's a fiftyfold expansion of renewables that are actually renewable ie low carbon

a road EV is typically 35% efficient (and 45% at best) from prime mover input to vehicle output - a race diesel is typically 45%

from power station output to EM output the road EV typically has 15-20% losses


10 million EVs in London all making beeping noises to warn pedestrians !! (this billionaire Zac Goldsmith has promised, if elected)
subsidised by robbing the ICE car owners of $1000 - $2000 a year ??
or further extending our national debt beyond its current $3000000000 route
let them use their lavish public transport that the rest of us subsidise from afar !

APOLOGIES TO ALL for my habit of posting then redraughting/redrafting
it's because my computor setup is archaic and I can't draft in the proper place

the local coal fired power plant is 47% when making just electricity, 90% when making electricity and district heating

so it probably breaks even with a gasoline car, with the added benefit that the smoke gets filtered, cleaned and the exhaust is from a tall chimney and not in the middle of the city

[Tommy Cookers]

I assume owners of ICE cars are also allowed access to district heating

power stations were originally in cities and all (in the USA) had district heating as a key part (and EVs were the first cars)
until the politicians banned this to force an increased availability of power to more rural areas

in the general section I started a thread founded on the position that our dominant energy need is for heat energy
ie so-called decarbonisation of electricity is something of a sideshow (wrt saving the world)
anyway what we need is (vastly) more genuinely low-carbon electricity, not increased demand for existing electricity

yes, London's problems, real or imagined, might be treated by EV compulsion - I'd love to see it

from power station generation at your 47% efficiency the losses at EV motor output are about 20% - so ok 36% overall

[R_GoWin]

How much is such a test influenced by how the car was driven? I have seriously no idea how NOx is measured, but of course typical usage of any type of emission will strongly vary on how the engine is being used - i.e. full throttle, part throttle, under load, in neutral, at N gear, weight of the car, how inflated the tires are, wind or other type of resistance etc.

A test case like conducted by any health and safety or state department can not take into account every single possibility - so a test-case is only here for the sole purpose of comparing every car under the same set of circumstances and where any specific limit applies?

Interesting document on testing procedures (Page 36 onwards) and sampling systems for emission measurement.

(alhtough for a heavy duty vehicle - but I doubt the process changing too much to passenger cars)

http://www.crcao.org/reports/recentstud ... Report.pdf

So in quick summary - a driver with chassis dynamometer experience manually drives a speed load trace that he is trained to follow - without crashing the gears.

So the thing that immediately stands out from this are that
- the test cycles propsed by EPA and Euro themselves are not reprentative of real world driving.
- does not take into account the gradient of the road, among many things (drag, ambient weather condition (affects inlet manifold temps), auxilary systems on engine etc)

Dr Tate, whose work is funded by the Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs and local councils, has been monitoring diesel emissions on Britain’s roads for five years and has recorded more than one million cars.

Interesting Dr. Tate's work was funded by the Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs - I wonder if they have bothered to look into and strictly regulate Nox from the agricultural industry and due to over fertilizing.

[DaveW]

I'm surprised that nobody has calculated the number of vehicles per day Dr. Tate claims to have tested (around 800....or 100 per hour).

[R_GoWin]

For what's worth, the Daily Mail published the following today:

...
Mazda’s engines emitted the most on average (0.49 grams per km) – 6.1 times the Euro limit. One of its vehicles was found to discharge 1.1 grams per km – 13.75 times the limit. Mazda was bettered by BMW (0.45 grams), Mercedes (0.42 grams), Volkswagen (0.41 grams) and Audi (0.36 grams)....

Not suprised to see Mazda there - I expect their Skyactiv-D program to come off worse in the aftermath of VW. Meeting Euro 6 without any SCR or NoX aftertreatment system of sorts is a Lance Armstrong type performance ( Path to Euro 6: low compression ratio of 14.1:1, EGR loops, improved piston bowl shapes and 'high dispersion' fuel injectors). They struggled big time to get the EPA to certify their diesel cars and I believe they are still not allowed to do business in California - this was before VWgate.

[langwadt]

I assume owners of ICE cars are also allowed access to district heating

sure, but it would be a bit problematical getting the ICEs plumbed to put their waste heat into the district heating

power stations were originally in cities and all (in the USA) had district heating as a key part (and EVs were the first cars)
until the politicians banned this to force an increased availability of power to more rural areas

in the general section I started a thread founded on the position that our dominant energy need is for heat energy
ie so-called decarbonisation of electricity is something of a sideshow (wrt saving the world)
anyway what we need is (vastly) more genuinely low-carbon electricity, not increased demand for existing electricity

yes, London's problems, real or imagined, might be treated by EV compulsion - I'd love to see it

from power station generation at your 47% efficiency the losses at EV motor output are about 20% - so ok 36% overall

so gasoline-ish efficiency without taking district heating into account

[Tommy Cookers]

I assume owners of ICE cars are also allowed access to district heating

sure, but it would be a bit problematical getting the ICEs plumbed to put their waste heat into the district heating

so gasoline-ish efficiency without taking district heating into account

actually when this eco thing all started in the 70s Fiat were studying exactly that use of the car's hot coolant
as part of national contingencies driven by the energy crisis of those times, so much Italian generation being oil-fuelled


again, why do you (seem to) assume that district heating can only exist in the homes of EV owners ?
when the ICEV owner consumes domestic electricity he wants to consume district heat just as the EV owner wants to
the ICEV owner will often want more district heat than electricity
only the EV owner will usually want more electricity than heat

but we have hardly any district heat anyway
only when all thermal electricity generation has district heating can the EV truly claim an efficiency benefit over the diesel ICEV
because only then can high efficiency be truly attributable to the increased electricity consumption from EV uptake

[autogyro]

TC

again, why do you (seem to) assume that district heating can only exist in the homes of EV owners ?
when the ICEV owner consumes domestic electricity he wants to consume district heat just as the EV owner wants to
the ICEV owner will often want more district heat than electricity
only the EV owner will usually want more electricity than heat

but we have hardly any district heat anyway
only when all thermal electricity generation has district heating can the EV truly claim an efficiency benefit over the diesel ICEV
because only then can high efficiency be truly attributable to the increased electricity consumption from EV uptake

The reasons why the abundant supply of waste fuel and wind and solar energy is not being harnessed for district energy use is lack of investment and objections to planning mainly from the oil and nuclear lobbies.
A small fraction of the nuclear subsidies redirected into district energy would more than kick start electric transport.
Trouble is they dont like it up em.

[Just_a_fan]

TC

again, why do you (seem to) assume that district heating can only exist in the homes of EV owners ?
when the ICEV owner consumes domestic electricity he wants to consume district heat just as the EV owner wants to
the ICEV owner will often want more district heat than electricity
only the EV owner will usually want more electricity than heat

but we have hardly any district heat anyway
only when all thermal electricity generation has district heating can the EV truly claim an efficiency benefit over the diesel ICEV
because only then can high efficiency be truly attributable to the increased electricity consumption from EV uptake

The reasons why the abundant supply of waste fuel and wind and solar energy is not being harnessed for district energy use is lack of investment and objections to planning mainly from the oil and nuclear lobbies.
A small fraction of the nuclear subsidies redirected into district energy would more than kick start electric transport.
Trouble is they dont like it up em.

Part of the problem is that the electricity industry isn't interested in investing. One of the issues currently is connecting micro-gen etc to the grid. They don't like it because the system needs lots of work to make successful. They don't want to invest in ways that make it easier for other people to supply electricity to the grid. Not in their interest.

We need lots of lovely nuclear power then we can get rid of dino-burning power stations. Tidal too. If we want lots of EVs on the roads then we need lots of generating capacity that isn't wind. Also, more solar thermal on houses to reduce the need to take energy to heat homes. Even in the winter in the UK, there is sufficient insolation to make a significant contribution to domestic heating/hot water.

[langwadt]

I assume owners of ICE cars are also allowed access to district heating

sure, but it would be a bit problematical getting the ICEs plumbed to put their waste heat into the district heating

so gasoline-ish efficiency without taking district heating into account

actually when this eco thing all started in the 70s Fiat were studying exactly that use of the car's hot coolant
as part of national contingencies driven by the energy crisis of those times, so much Italian generation being oil-fuelled


again, why do you (seem to) assume that district heating can only exist in the homes of EV owners ?
when the ICEV owner consumes domestic electricity he wants to consume district heat just as the EV owner wants to
the ICEV owner will often want more district heat than electricity
only the EV owner will usually want more electricity than heat

district heating is available to everyone, the point is that the waste heat from an ICE goes to waste, the waste heat from generating electricity for an EV can be used to heat homes and make hot water

so for every kg of fuel burned more of the the available joules goes to cover the energy needs

that of course only works when the balance between the needed forms of energy balance

but we have hardly any district heat anyway
only when all thermal electricity generation has district heating can the EV truly claim an efficiency benefit over the diesel ICEV
because only then can high efficiency be truly attributable to the increased electricity consumption from EV uptake

here power plants, waste incineration, cement factories etc. all provide district heat