Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[GoranF1]

Honda will use last 4 tokens in Russia?
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... gn=Formel1

[alexx_88]

I've read the article and I really can't understand what Hughes is on about with the compressor not being able to generate enough heat. For all we can figure out, it's the turbine's parameters that's limiting them, not the compressor's.

[bergie88]

I've read the article and I really can't understand what Hughes is on about with the compressor not being able to generate enough heat. For all we can figure out, it's the turbine's parameters that's limiting them, not the compressor's.

Exactly, I was also a bit confused. The problem is that there are some people writing all stuff about these power units, but really have no idea where they are talking about. The compressor is only used to pressurize the air, off course it can be too small such that is does not deliver the required boost pressure, but this has nothing to do with generating enough heat. If you have a too small turbine you wont be able to extract as much energy as possible from the exhaust gasses, and that is where I think the problem for Honda is about.

[j.yank]

From what I'm reading (speculation) on other sites is the Honda compressor is smaller but was designed to operate at a higher RPM than the competition along with the MGUH. They had problems with running at such a high RPM reliably so they had to dial the system back. Arai is confirming they are sticking with the same solution but trying to improve it to run as they require. There is another, larger more conventional design working in tandem if they cannot make the original work.

Here is one site that sums it up:

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/ex ... into-2016/

If you look more carefully what happen in Suzuka you will see that all overtakings that provoke the famous GP2 comments were in the final parts of the straights were you should expect this to happen when the other guys are running with DRS. In order this to happen you should have lost in all previous parts of the lap so the competitor to be in striking distance in the final part of the straight. This means that you don't have enough energy to maintain the required power during the whole lap, but not that you don't have powerful compressor to help you on the straights. So, on my opinion there is not anything wrong with the compressor size. But why they have deficit in ERS? Two possibilities: wrong MGU-H/turbine or wrong MGU-K. All my calculations show that if MGU-H/turbine is the problem this will cause much much sever effect in the lap times comparing to what we see. Underrated MGU-K seems more logical explanation of the lap times that they are doing. I think that most of the people are following the easiest explanation that they did the same mistake like Ferrari, but I doubt this.

[ojlopez]

From what I'm reading (speculation) on other sites is the Honda compressor is smaller but was designed to operate at a higher RPM than the competition along with the MGUH. They had problems with running at such a high RPM reliably so they had to dial the system back. Arai is confirming they are sticking with the same solution but trying to improve it to run as they require. There is another, larger more conventional design working in tandem if they cannot make the original work.

Here is one site that sums it up:

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/ex ... into-2016/

Sounds reasonable, McLaren does not look so slow in the corners so they might be generating more downforce at lower speeds.

[haza]

from what i seen during suzuka the honda pu was faster than renault all weekend and during the race it took verstappen and riccardo ages to overtake alonso

[drunkf1fan]

From what I'm reading (speculation) on other sites is the Honda compressor is smaller but was designed to operate at a higher RPM than the competition along with the MGUH. They had problems with running at such a high RPM reliably so they had to dial the system back. Arai is confirming they are sticking with the same solution but trying to improve it to run as they require. There is another, larger more conventional design working in tandem if they cannot make the original work.

Here is one site that sums it up:

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/ex ... into-2016/

The only person I've seen claim they are sticking with it is Hughes, Arai is widely quoted as having said they need a major engine layout change to be competitive because they did the wrong things this year.

There are so many inconsistencies, poorly worded parts and misunderstood parts IMHO. He says the key to getting a smaller back end is a small compressor when in reality it's getting the exhaust entry, which means the turbine, as far forward as possible. Honda achieved this with a split turbo where they were forced to make it small enough to fit in the V. Merc achieved it with probably the biggest compressor on the grid by putting it at the front of the engine.

The whole article is written in a pro Honda way, like achieving 130k rpm is something no one else has yet achieved... implying they all want to be can't and pushing the idea that when Honda achieve this they'll have a leg up on everyone else ignoring the reasons Honda have struggled and why no one else wants to 'achieve' it. higher the rpm, bigger the reliability issues and the less efficient the system is likely to be. It also doesn't really tie up with what Honda have been saying, they seem happy with ICE output, but are struggling with harvesting. This isn't about max turbo output because if they are happy with ICE output they've got the air they need, it's about how their turbo is balanced in terms of harvesting. It is IMHO doing what is designed, they just like Ferrari didn't focus on MGU-H harvesting.

If in the truly awful way he's tried to 'explain' it what he means is if they can achieve 130k rpm which will achieve the air required to improve ICE output, then harvesting would still be a problem because if they 'need' 130k rpm harvesting from it will starve the ICE.

Again from what I've seen, Arai is talking about a big layout change. I fully expect a very different mgu-h/turbo setup next year, not just another overly small compressor.

[bergie88]

Due to the fact that both the turbine and the compressor are inside the V, the size of both components is restricted to the distance between the two cilinder banks. Mercedes's PU might be a bit longer, but they have total freedom in the diameter of both the turbine and the compressor, because they are outside the V. Honda is likely to have the problem right now that they have 1. a too small turbine such that they do not harvest enough energy and 2. a too small compressor such that they do not reach the boost pressure they want and therefore dont reach the highest combustion efficiency of the ICE.

Add to that the tight position of the MGU-H inside the V and between the turbine and compressor, possibly leading to overheating, and the sealing problems with the MGU-K such that it cannot be operated at its maximum of 120 kW, and it is not a surprise they are miles behind Mercedes and Ferrari.

[PlatinumZealot]

I've read the article and I really can't understand what Hughes is on about with the compressor not being able to generate enough heat. For all we can figure out, it's the turbine's parameters that's limiting them, not the compressor's.

Oh it's Mark Hughes on a technical aspect. Good thing I didn't follow the link. He is terrible when it comes to the technical part of F1. He is better off sticking to analyzing other things like politics, driving, drivers and stuff like that. I don't know why he is trying to overextend himself. Even James Allen knows to stay far away from technical writing, he hires people like ex-Williams engineer to contribute instead of sticking his neck into things he doesn't understand.

[wuzak]

The whole article is written in a pro Honda way, like achieving 130k rpm is something no one else has yet achieved... implying they all want to be can't and pushing the idea that when Honda achieve this they'll have a leg up on everyone else ignoring the reasons Honda have struggled and why no one else wants to 'achieve' it.

If in the truly awful way he's tried to 'explain' it what he means is if they can achieve 130k rpm which will achieve the air required to improve ICE output, then harvesting would still be a problem because if they 'need' 130k rpm harvesting from it will starve the ICE.

Nobody else is trying to get 130k rpm because it is against the rules....

[Abarth]

[...]

Nobody else is trying to get 130k rpm because it is against the rules....

Not quite:

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.

5.2.4 The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the exhaust turbine of a pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched. The rotational speed of the MGU-H may not exceed 125,000rpm.

So between MGU-H and Turbo it can be a gearing, and even a clutch. As it appears to be on a common axis with the turbo in the Honda application, it would have to be a planetary wheel set.

However, I do not think that they have chosen this way.

[Thunder]

https://twitter.com/ams_formula1/status ... 9066851328

[Wazari]

From F1i.com:

Speaking exclusively to F1i, Honda motorsport boss Yasuhisa Arai says the belief is the failings of this year’s power unit can be rectified without a complete overhaul of the layout.

“Looking at this year and next year, we’ve already gone in to a plan on how to make it better based on the current layout,” Arai said, speaking via a translator. “The final plan may come in winter but we are already on it.

“It will be the base we work from because it’s the layout we’ve worked on from scratch with McLaren. We think there’s the possibility there, that’s why we fixed on that layout. So there is more potential to be had.”
http://en.f1i.com/news/27804-honda-unli ... -2016.html

Wazari, is Arai statement reconcilable with the information you have?

The meaning of "lost in translation" is in full effect here. Based on my sources, what was really said in Japanese was, "Based on what was learned from this year's PU and current configuration, we have already begun planning on improvements for next year. The final layout will probably not be decided until going into the winter, however we have commenced on major changes."

"Our starting point has to be from this current layout which we designed in conjunction with McLaren's plan. Once this layout was decided upon we thought there would be more potential there. There is some potential still to be extracted from this layout."

I am getting this second hand from people I know inside Honda Racing currently. One individual is very close to Arai-san.

So yes, from my understanding, there are two configurations on the table being developed right now for next year. One still following the "size 0" configuration with major turbine updates and another "longer" unit. Both supposedly with completely redesigned MGU-H units.

Please remember, this is all second hand information and please consider it as intelligent speculation for this forum only.

[Andres125sx]

from what i seen during suzuka the honda pu was faster than renault all weekend

Thanks man, we need some laughs in this thread

[dren]

From F1i.com:

Speaking exclusively to F1i, Honda motorsport boss Yasuhisa Arai says the belief is the failings of this year’s power unit can be rectified without a complete overhaul of the layout.

“Looking at this year and next year, we’ve already gone in to a plan on how to make it better based on the current layout,” Arai said, speaking via a translator. “The final plan may come in winter but we are already on it.

“It will be the base we work from because it’s the layout we’ve worked on from scratch with McLaren. We think there’s the possibility there, that’s why we fixed on that layout. So there is more potential to be had.”
http://en.f1i.com/news/27804-honda-unli ... -2016.html

Wazari, is Arai statement reconcilable with the information you have?

The meaning of "lost in translation" is in full effect here. Based on my sources, what was really said in Japanese was, "Based on what was learned from this year's PU and current configuration, we have already begun planning on improvements for next year. The final layout will probably not be decided until going into the winter, however we have commenced on major changes."

"Our starting point has to be from this current layout which we designed in conjunction with McLaren's plan. Once this layout was decided upon we thought there would be more potential there. There is some potential still to be extracted from this layout."

I am getting this second hand from people I know inside Honda Racing currently. One individual is very close to Arai-san.

So yes, from my understanding, there are two configurations on the table being developed right now for next year. One still following the "size 0" configuration with major turbine updates and another "longer" unit. Both supposedly with completely redesigned MGU-H units.

Please remember, this is all second hand information and please consider it as intelligent speculation for this forum only.

That backs up Hughes' article somewhat. I think he had the turbine/compressor confused or perhaps he meant both components.

I am also hearing they have two set-ups in the works from another individual.