MotoGP 2015

[Felipe 92]

Rossi reacted badly and out of the rules, but in a very human way. I'm still convinced that each one of us, in Rossi's place, would have been "annoyed" by Marquez behaviour and would have done a similar move... I simply cannot believe in the moralist and politically correct words of some people...
It's like trying to read a good book while a mosquito is bothering you... The only human reaction is: death to the moquito!

So if I`m annoyed with your comments the only human reaction is to kill you? Are you normal?
I do hope someone kicks you off the bike at 100km/h, preferably Ronnie Pickering.

An I cannot believe some people keep justifying a kick of a MotoGP rider to any other

Even if he´s Rossi

There is no point arguing with them. Rossi and Hamilton can do whatever they want because they are the best.
"He reacted in a human way and kicked him".

[variante]

I know Rossi fans...

First, let's not bring this to "fans VS haters"... Let's just try to analyse the situation objectively, trying to empathize with both riders.

About what you said, Andres...There's an unspoken rule amongst any racing event for which you shouldn't hinder those who are fighting for the victory, if you have no chance to achieve it.
For example, I remember that, some years ago, Alonso was at the back of the field at Monaco and was trying to overtake a Marussia car...well, he did it only after an hard fight that did cost him several seconds and enormous risks; you may say that's racing...but that day everyone hated that Marussia driver, who was criticized even by a notoriously moderated TV commentator (and former pilot).
So everything comes to the definition of "fair play"... We obviously have different points of view about that.

So if I`m annoyed with your comments the only human reaction is to kill you? Are you normal?
I do hope someone kicks you off the bike at 100km/h, preferably Ronnie Pickering.

You see, you're talking out of the context that I was talking about earlier... Your words are worthless if you don't consider all the factors involved.

BTW, let's discuss with words, not with up/downvotes (not necessarily referred to you).

Anyway... turbof1 asked me to translate Reggiani's words that i posted in a previous post:

While i was watching the Australian GP i thought: today is the first time in many years that Valentino hasn't got a lucid mind during the race: he keeps on overtaking Marquez and loosing time, while it would be better staying behind him and follow him to gain ground, because Marc is the only one who can do it. Then I heard Rossi in the press conference, that thursday in Malaysia, saying those words about an hypothetical help from Marquez to Lorenzo, so I thought that he lost his mind completely. But I thought too: Valentino cannot be SO crazy! Thus I recalled Philip Island race in my memory and thought about it with more malice, and I started having doubts on Marquez.
I decided to try to get rid of those doubts, I went on MotoGP website and I printed all the times of all the laps of all the pilots, even sector times (Results and Statistics > 16.Pramac Australian - Philip Island > MotoGP > RACE > Analysis), and with the printed paper in my hand I watched the race again. It's easy, everyone can do it. I couldn't believe to what I was seeing; to be sure, I watched it twice. Marquez used to slow even 1second per lap when he was in front of Rossi, and used to accelerate to overtake him immediatly when he was behind. He made anything he could to defend Lorenzo from Rossi and Iannone, then he slowed them down for a couple of times making them loose 1second at the penultimate lap, then went 1second faster during the last lap, up to the point of reaching and overtaking Lorenzo very easily. There's more: Lorenzo during the last 20 laps has ALWAYS lapped super constantly between 1'29,8 and 1'29,9, except, coincidentally, during the last lap, in which slowed down by almost half a second while Marquez passed as he was lapping him, without opposing any resistence. Anyone who has raced on bikes knows very well that such things don't happen...certain differences from lap to lap are not normal at all.

(from here: personal considerations...not always easy to translate from italian to english. Just keep in mind that Reggiani is quite an impartial guy)
Then we saw that squalid game of Marquez in Malaysia, after declaring, 2 days earlier, that he was surprised by Valentino's words and that he would have NEVER put himself between a business amongst two other pilots. So false...he hasn't even the courage to say what he truly thinks. I used to have an enormous esteem for Marquez until yesterday; from today I consider him just a poor guy, a child that bothers a schoolmate because he doesn't like him. But they're playing with their lives, here. I had forgotten Valentino at Assen: I didn't like his maneuver to win that race at all; as a pilot, I knew it was a bit..."dirty". I didn't like Valentino's considerations in that occasion too, when in my opinion he was mocking his rival. But in Argentina not at all: I don't think it was anyone's fault there...it was just an unlucky crossing of trajectories for Marc.
I think that the Catalan is very angry for those 2 episodes and that, once mathematically out of the fight for the title, decided to do everything to make Rossi lose the championship. During these two raced he clearly showed this, and he staged one of the most unsportsmanlike pages of the history of this sport, since i've been following it. I could barely accept such a behaviour if he was fighting for HIS title, but for someone else's title...it's just disgusting!

The worst thing is that Marquez is not doing these things to let someone win, but to make someone else lose.

[hollus]

There's an unspoken rule amongst any racing event for which you shouldn't hinder those who are fighting for the victory, if you have no chance to achieve it.

By that logic, Petrov should have gotten out of the way in Abu Dhabi in 2010 and let Alonso past (and then Webber). Well, everyone should have gotten out of the way of the fastest cars and let it become a Vettel - Alonso - Webber 1 - 2 - 3. In that way no one would have interfered with the outcome of the championship.

[turbof1]

Thanks Variante!

And indeed let's not try to make this another fan vs hater contest. It does not necessarily go against what the general opinion is: Rossi made a disgusting move towards Marquez, while Marquez did not do anything technically wrong.

BUT: I am slowly starting to believe Marquez agonized and irritated Rossi, and possibly on purpose. Or maybe not. It was quite remarkable what Marquez did on Phillip island, and yes his action did cause Rossi to loose time. I don't want to believe Marquez did this on purpose. It's very difficult to tell that from the time table in my eyes since the battles themselves, even defending, can cost time.

However, Marquez and Rossi were extremely agressive against one another in Malaysia, before the kicking of Rossi. You saw the brutality. There is perhaps anger from Marquez towards Rossi because of the 2 accidents earlier in the season, which may have angered Rossi in his turn.

I feel that the stewards who punished Rossi took those elements too in their decision. It's quite murky. In the end Rossi is now burned because he made the dreadful decision to kick Marquez and I do stand with everything I have said previously. However, it does help to understand when looking from Rossi's perspective to know that perhaps Marquez was playing games too. Not anything against the rules, but I find it... unethical since it's a highly dangerous sport and the both should have paid eachother more respect. Like I said, it was building up to such a moment anyhow and the way the anger was so visible in their riding, it could just as well have been Marquez who makes Rossi crash. It was too vicious, and something was always going to happen.

Again, we cannot and will not play down Rossi's kick. Unheard and not done. What we can do is check rather if Marquez instigated a bit, fully realizing he did not made any breach in the rules. That's not a contradiction, gentlemen. That's trying to solve the complex puzzle inside these riders their heads.

I do hope someone kicks you off the bike at 100km/h, preferably Ronnie Pickering.

I'm sorry to say this, but that is a very disgusting to say to someone. I don't care if you did not meant it literally or sarcastically, but that is something you never wished for anybody. It is really morbid. Even if someone disagree with you, there's no need to attack someone like that.

[variante]

Wise words, turbof1.

There's an unspoken rule amongst any racing event for which you shouldn't hinder those who are fighting for the victory, if you have no chance to achieve it.

By that logic, Petrov should have gotten out of the way in Abu Dhabi in 2010 and let Alonso past (and then Webber). Well, everyone should have gotten out of the way of the fastest cars and let it become a Vettel - Alonso - Webber 1 - 2 - 3. In that way no one would have interfered with the outcome of the championship.

I shouldn't have used the word "hinder", maybe. It's hard to write down the exact terms of an unspoken conventional rule...
Let's say that: if you're not racing for the victory, you should not put the potential winner's race in danger, like putting him in a very risky situation for no reason (such as the one in my previous example, involving Alonso and a Marussia, or the Marquez-Rossi battle), or starting a fruitless battle (imagine Petrov being overtaken and then trying to take his position back, being able only to slow Alonso as a result).
So it's not about letting the potential winners pass...it's about not being "inopportune"...

[J.A.W.]

However, Marquez and Rossi were extremely agressive against one another in Malaysia, before the kicking of Rossi. You saw the brutality...

I do hope someone kicks you off the bike at 100km/h, preferably Ronnie Pickering.

I'm sorry to say this, but that is a very disgusting to say to someone. I don't care if you did not meant it literally or sarcastically, but that is something you never wished for anybody. It is really morbid. Even if someone disagree with you, there's no need to attack someone like that.

To be fair, I think F-92's comment was a sardonic reference to another infamously hyped 'road rage' incident..

& curiously enough, 'Ronnie Pickering' purports to have a dog named 'Baxter' - same as the one who got the boot also..
..per the comedy road rage scene in 'Anchorman' - see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDfQo1ANeLM

[Andres125sx]

I know Rossi fans...

First, let's not bring this to "fans VS haters"... Let's just try to analyse the situation objectively

If you disagree with me that does not mean I´m not as objective as you. Moreover, I´ve been a Rossi fan for a long time. I have his very first victory in 125 recorded in VHS... if the tape still works.

That´s the reason I said that, I´ve always considered Rossi to be a tough rider but always within the limits, and I´ve always respect him fully, and admired. You can scroll back this thread and you´ll see I prefered Rossi winning this title better than Lorenzo

But I´m not that biased to justify what he did, even when I admire him

About what you said, Andres...There's an unspoken rule amongst any racing event for which you shouldn't hinder those who are fighting for the victory, if you have no chance to achieve it.

Again, that unspoken rule does not existe, have never existed and will never exist. If some of you think that´s what drivers/rider should do that´s a different thing, but there´s no unspoken rule at all

For example, I remember that, some years ago, Alonso was at the back of the field at Monaco and was trying to overtake a Marussia car...well, he did it only after an hard fight that did cost him several seconds and enormous risks; you may say that's racing...but that day everyone hated that Marussia driver

Very good example, but Petrov in 2010 will be even better. Oh and no, not everyone hated that Marusia driver, speak for yourself.

You can´t find a more enthusiastic Alonso fan than myself. Do you know who did I blame in 2010? Ferrari because they where that naive to bite RBR trap, but I never blamed Petrov, despite I was really angry with the outcome.

So as you can see my driver/rider preferences have nothing to see with this.

I see it this way, if any driver/rider move away to let the title contender pass:

1- He´s NOT doing his job wich is defending his team, not thinking about thirds who shouldn´t worry him

2- He´s manipulating the championship because he probably had some fight with the other title contender earlier in the season and fighted with him fair and square, so if now he does not do the same with the other, he´s favouring one of them, and manipulating the championship outcome


For these two reasons I find it hypocrite Rossi´s position, he said MM is manipulating the championship... in an attempt to manipulate the championship, because don´t be fooled, what Rossi wants is Marquez NOT fighting with him on the track, so he can move forward and increase his chances for the title

[Andres125sx]

BUT: I am slowly starting to believe Marquez agonized and irritated Rossi, and possibly on purpose.

Sincerely, I´ve also considered this posibility but you know what? Even if true, Rossi deserve it.

It was Rossi who accused Marquez of favouring Lorenzo and manipulating the championship. That´s a strong accusation people is taking as if it´s normal, maybe you guys wouldn´t care if someone defame you saying you´re manipulating the chamionship when you´re not, but I wouldn´t take it easy

Defaming someone is contemptible, if you do it on purpose for your personal benefit, then there´s no words to describe it

Personally, when someone accuse me of something I´ve not done, I then do it on purpose. This way he´ll learn the difference and will never accuse me without reason again.

Marquez could have done this after Rossi´s accusations


But to me the main thing here is who started the unfair battle. It obviously was Rossi, first defaming Marquez trying to get some benefit on track, and when he realiced the result was the opposite (he fought him harder) kicking him


Rossi´s double mistake

[ChrisF1]

Marquez is the 2015 version of Norberto Fontana at Jerez in 1997 rather than Petrov at Abu Dhabi in 2010.

[turbof1]

BUT: I am slowly starting to believe Marquez agonized and irritated Rossi, and possibly on purpose.

Sincerely, I´ve also considered this posibility but you know what? Even if true, Rossi deserve it.

It was Rossi who accused Marquez of favouring Lorenzo and manipulating the championship. That´s a strong accusation people is taking as if it´s normal, maybe you guys wouldn´t care if someone defame you saying you´re manipulating the chamionship when you´re not, but I wouldn´t take it easy

Defaming someone is contemptible, if you do it on purpose for your personal benefit, then there´s no words to describe it

Personally, when someone accuse me of something I´ve not done, I then do it on purpose. This way he´ll learn the difference and will never accuse me without reason again.

Marquez could have done this after Rossi´s accusations


But to me the main thing here is who started the unfair battle. It obviously was Rossi, first defaming Marquez trying to get some benefit on track, and when he realiced the result was the opposite (he fought him harder) kicking him


Rossi´s double mistake

I agree with it: Rossi isn't even punished hard enough in my eyes. I think the biggest issue here is people their subconscious telling them it's not possible that both Rossi made a terrible mistake and that Marquez instigated things somewhat (and again, he did so while staying complete within the written rules), while both are very much possible and infact I think that was has really happened. One does not exclude the other.

I don't know who started it. I don't know if it matters since troubles between them have gone too long to really say "the idiot next to me started this whole damn thing". In a fight you are always with 2. Clearly Rossi pushed it too far and well beyond the line, but the feeding ground for this brutality, that's on both of their heads.

Again, that unspoken rule does not existe, have never existed and will never exist. If some of you think that´s what drivers/rider should do that´s a different thing, but there´s no unspoken rule at all

I can't comment on whether or not this specific unspoken rule -norm is actually the correct word- exists. However, these drivers and riders do meet very often. F1 has the GPDA, a formal structure which bundles all the grand prix drivers in one common voice and who have often meetings. Surely norms and protocols will be agreed by all drivers to follow, outside what the FIA puts inside the sporting rules.

I've tried to look for an association of the motogp riders, but there is apparently no formal organization. Riders will probably still meet, but without any obligations and without any sort of power to enforce what is agreed concerning unwritten rules and the like.

So I tend to agree with Andres there, Variante. It's quite possible that there is such a 'rule', but without any proper riders organization it's not possible to enforce it.

[AMG.Tzan]

I cant believe how ironic this is! People are always asking for better races with more riders involved in the fight for the win! Then we get these races like Phillip Island where we had an unbelievable race and we come here and destroy everything by saying it was all controversy!(just because Rossi said it) The same goes on for Malaysia! Had it been a normal race weekend no one would have said all this kind of b**it about Marquez playing games! It would have just been a nice fight between two of the very best of the field! I've been watching MotoGP for the last 3 years! I have been watching every single race full and every single time Marc Marquez is driving like that! Every single time he is gunning for victory taking risks at every corner (that's why he lost this year's championship btw!). Marquez didn't lose the championship because of Rossi...and i can't understand why Rossi is saying this just because the clashed in Argetina and Assen! Marquez has fallen down so many times this years just because he was riding way beyond his bike's limits! Get on with it guys. Just because the legend of the field (Rossi) says something doesn't mean it is true! I think he is just trying to find an excuse of why he hasn't got the speed to catch Lorenzo in normal conditions! Because even if he was right behind Lorenzo in Australia and Malaysia he wouldn't have been able to pass him and we all know it! So enjoy the championship finale as it is and let all these b**it for the commentators! Who knows? Maybe Rossi will be able to make a come back ala Marquez 2012 and with the Hondas 1-2 he will be able to clinch it! And believe me! This will be a much bigger feat than just staying 4th and winning it!!

[NathanOlder]

Does anyone have a photo or freeze frame from a video of Rossi moving his leg/foot towards Marquez BEFORE Marquez leans on Rossi? To which every riders reaction is to push the other rider away. It was only recently at Motegi where in (I think) Moto2 2 riders, Rins Zarco maybe, clashed elbows down then back straight and pushed at each other, as you would always push at them.

I think Rossi pushed/Kicked at Marquez for leaning on him at a time when there was room for at least 3 more bikes on the outside.

[bdr529]

The move Rossi made is best left for Friday or Saturday not during the race.

You just can't slow down well below racing speed to essentially f**k with some one, I have no problem with Rossi running Marquez out wide, But you can't slow down to the point were you stand your's and the other riders bike upright, just to block the other rider from going around the outside, that's the point at which Marquez runs into Rossi's knee.
I personally don't think that the kick did anything I think Marquez's right arm hits Rossi's leg and that's when his front wheel tucks under and he goes down.
That's my problem with this move, Rossi slowing down below racing speed to get in the way of Marquez and F**k with him.
Kind of like the road rage crap you see on the streets or on Youtube



This happened back in 2013 and the dick in this video is WSBK rider Niccolò Canepa at some trackday at Mugello
You don't see why Canepa is pissed at the other rider, you just see what he does to make his point,
He reaches over and hits the other rider's brake leaver, The out come Broken Collarbone for the other rider
By the way he has been charged with assault and I think his court case his coming up or just happened ?

[Gatecrasher]

Philip Island was quoted as being one of the best races ever. To find out later that some of the passing may have occurred only because one rider was purposely slowing two riders down, not racing, is not what we are used to in MotoGP. The lap time data does look dodgy.

In F1 we have seen drivers working to help their teammate by slowing down and creating gaps, this was always been part of the sport, like it or not. I believe, non data based, that this has reduced since the introduction of DRS and “push to pass buttons”. Pity we could not have DRS in MotoGP … no please never.

We will never know if MM was racing or really messing with Rossi as according to MM his tires were not warmed up running 1 sec off JL's pace. In Philip Island it took until the very last lap for the tires kick in, we only made it to Lap 7 this time.

Unlike F1 this was for a non team member. Honda and Yamaha management have a tough situation to work out.

This may be bad publicity however how many more people will be glued to the TV next week for Spain. If Rossi stays and does not retire, next year every event will be sold out, I might even go to one myself.

All publicity is good publicity for the pockets....

[J.A.W.]

Marquez is the 2015 version of Norberto Fontana at Jerez in 1997 rather than Petrov at Abu Dhabi in 2010.

A bit of respect for M-M is due.. He is the current & immediate past - World Champ, after all..
He also has a better record for standing on the the top step of the box - if he finishes a race, than Rossi..
& Rossi for all his achievements, hasn't won 13 races in a row in Moto GP, as M-M has..

I'd like to see M-M try a Ducati..
I see rumours are about - that Ducati realize they made a mistake with letting Stoner go, & want him back..