And you think the FW26's nose is ugly!!!!

[Monstrobolaxa]

Just took a look at the old videos....

well there was a minimum size for the cockpits...and teams complied with them...this untill 1994...teams tried to make the opening as small as they could within the size limit! After the Senna crash the size of the cockpit opening was increased by 10 cm in length.

In 1996 the new high sides came in....and for a few years the size of the cockpit was mantained! If I'm not mistaken...in 2000 the size of the opening was increased by 5 cm again! (not sure about the 2000 thing...but I the recent past they changed the cockpit size once again or in 2000 or 2001!)

So in the last decade and a half cockpits have (on average) increased.

In this case if look at the size of the helmet...and imagine the car having an extra 5 cm in height!...and look at the side of the cockpit...the helmet seems to be as long as the side of the cockpit opening. If you ever have a 1/18 model of this car and a after 1995 car at the same scale...compare the area that is still free in the cockpit opening....you'll see that in this car the cockpit opening is much smaller! It just seems bigger because it doesn't have high sides.

[Irvingthien]

Cool photo.Never seen before.
I see that McLaren in that time has already found that higher nose cone has better aerodynamic,but I think tha tthey can't find a solution to lower the front wing to produce optimum downforce.

[Monstrobolaxa]

About high nose cones!...Adrian Newey is usually called the father of high noses...he introduced them when he was at March in 1990 (or 1991).

My question is: could someone explain why?If you look at both cars you'll see it has a low nose cone! For me the first high nosed car is the 1990 or 1991 (not sure) Tyrrell! Or even the 1991 Benetton! But definitly not the March!

[Reca]

in those days the main plane of the front wing had to be 5 cm from the reference plane....

Are you sure ? As far as I remember in 1990 there was nothing but logic to limit the minimum height of the front wing and actually there wasn’t even the concept of reference plane as we have today, the reference for the height of all the bodywork parts was IIRC, simply the ground. The reference plane was introduced only in 1995.

Once thing I noticed...in 1990 skirts were ilegal....but if you look at the endplates of the front wing...they seem to have a kind os skirt!

Lower limit of the endplate was the same as the lower edge of the car, so the ground, in 1991 they introduced the minimum height for the endplate, 25 mm above the lower edge of the car and almost contemporarily the designers introduced an extension of the endplate in the inner side of the wheel (very interesting designs at the time) that was then banned in 1994.
BTW, the skirts were banned simply requiring a flat bottom, but it was mandated only between the rearmost point of the front wheels and the foremost point of the rear wheels, so it didn’t include the front wing.

Notice how ridicilously high the driver is sitting in the car, as comapared to today

In the past (ante mid 90’s) the wheelbase was a bit shorter, the engine/gearbox was longer and there wasn’t refuelling (good old days) meaning they had to put a > 200 liters fuel tank right behind the driver. For these reason there was a shorter horizontal space for the driver and clearly that was limiting the possibility to have a lied down position.

Adrian Newey is usually called the father of high noses...he introduced them when he was at March in 1990 (or 1991).

Actually that’s the first time I hear that, usually Jean Claude Migeot is called the father of the high nose, the car being the Tyrrel 019 (1990).
To be honest in the 1989 March, the chassis, although it wasn’t really high, was a bit raised and also there was the concept of the splitter, obviously far less evident than nowadays, but still was there. I don’t know if it was the first car to use that concept but that could have something to do with what you heard. Maybe Migeot took inspiration from there, still I wouldn’t call Newey as the father of the high nose anyway since most of Newey’s cars have a low nose...

[Monstrobolaxa]

About the first thing...not 100% sure! but ...at the time the car had already some limitations in terms of height (maximum car and maximum for the rear wing) and if you consider the ground as a reference depending on the ride height the car could be legal or illegal!

About the high nose cone....I read it in 2 F1 history books! but in any case like I pointed out to me the 1990 Tyrrell was the first car to have a high nose cone.

[bernard]

So monstro, are you telling me the cars today have this large openings?
http://www.f1technical.net/f1db/cars/457
Nowadays they even have to fold their hands and take off the wheel to get out.

[bernard]

And the reason why the hands werent visible during the turns in the past was not because of smaller opening, but because the car was much higher, whereas today the cars are as tall or shorter than the wheels.(hope that made any sense)


Here is a modern F1 car from the side:
. _____| \ #
/O______O


The proportions don't quite match, but you'll get the idea. The nosecone today isn't as thick, its as high as the tyres. That's why the hands today show, whereas back in the day they were inside the car. It's not because of the opening.
(hope you like the draving, took me quite long to make it show up right on the post)

[Monstrobolaxa]

So in the last decade and a half cockpits have (on average) increased.

We were talking about the early 90's not the 80's!

[Monstrobolaxa]

Untill 95 (from 1990) the minimum cockpit size was (look at the pic):

http://www.geocities.com/correra_racing/pre95.jpg

After 1995 the minimum cockpit size was (look at the pic):

http://www.geocities.com/correra_racing/after95.jpg

(let me know if you can see the pictures! they're technical pics of the minimum cockpit sizes from pre-95 and from after 95!)

Doing the calculations:

pre-95 cockpit had a minimum of: 1800 square cm

after 96 cockpit had a minimum of: 2540.72 square cm

which is bigger?

This is the minimum...and teams try to keep the sizes of the cockpit to the minimum....if a team builds a bigger cockpit opening it's up to them!

if you read carfully my post I didn't say all cockpits were smaller before 1995! And I was mentioning from 1990 to 1995! not 1980! We don't have the regs from that time!

[Monstrobolaxa]

In 2000 and 2001 the cockpit regulations changed....now the cockpits are even bigger:

http://www.geocities.com/correra_racing/dessin02.jpg
(taken from the tech regs)

now a cockpits has a minimum area of: 3832.73 square cm! over 2 times bigger them the cockpits from 1990 to 1995!

Like I previously said....the teams can decide if they want bigger cockpit openings!

[Reca]

if you consider the ground as a reference depending on the ride height the car could be legal or illegal!

That was exactly the reason I remember it worked that way, sometimes there was this kind of debate regarding measurement. For maximum height of the car (at the airbox) and of the rear wing the reference was the ground, IIRC it was 100 cm the former and a few cm less, probably 95 the latter but I’m not sure about the numbers.

[Monstrobolaxa]

well you might be right...like I said I'm not 100% sure!

PS - can everyone see the pics from the links?

[Reca]

I can’t see the pics in the link (actually I can’t even access to your website) but since now I’m at home I’ve checked the Piola’s '95 technical analysis. There are a few drawings describing the different rules and the area of both openings matches your results (the shape is rectangular + triangular pre 95 and rectangular + circular post 95). Also from the same source I can confirm what I previously said, pre 1995 the reference for wing and car maximum height was the ground, 100 cm maximum the airbox and 96 cm maximum the wing (increased during the ’94 season due to the adoption of the 1 cm thick skid block, previously it was 95 cm). In 1995 the new rules required a maximum height of 95 cm above the reference plane for the airbox and of 80 cm above the reference plane for the rear wing.

Bernard : I think your impression that nowadays the opening is small simply comes from the presence of the part forming the inner side of head protections and the head rest. That’s not part of the chassis, it’s a separate part made on a soft material. The driver obviously leaves it in place while he gets out by himself but the marshals can very easily remove it to extract driver + seat. Just look at the images after the Ralf crash and you can see the car without that part showing the real, huge, opening in the chassis.

[Monstrobolaxa]

Reca the pre95 and after95 links are pics taken with my webcam of does Piola drawings!....but yesterday I was studying for todays exam so I didn't have the time to read (and try to understand) what was written!

The other pic is from the FIA technical regs!

[bernard]

We were talking about the early 90's not the 80's!

I apologise for the misunderstanding. I was talking about cars from the 80's to the 90's, since in the nineties the cars really sarted to be technologically advanced. The cars that were before 90's i don't consider F1. They were crap.