Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[diffuser]

Honda F1 boss Yasuhisa Arai said: "A car 2.5 seconds faster than us already exists, so in that sense it isn't a miracle. You can do it with the technology.

Now that's funny. When did Arai get such a sense of Humor ? ....Alonzo's Engineer ?

[PlatinumZealot]

This is improbable conjecture at best. Still, I learn from trying to work through and around the regs....

So, for a horizontal and angled solution, we are to assume the regs insist upon the entire length of the T/C connecting shaft to be always and entirely parallel to the crankshaft plane? And we could not create an assembly where the connecting shaft would be parallel to the crank in a plan view, but non parallel in elevation (side) view, yet still with the rear portion of the shaft assembly within 25 mm of the vehicle centerline.

The bearings could be part of a pressurized dry sump system? Assuming a vertical shaft intersected the centerline, that is.

Solutions get far too similar with these sorts of regulations, don't they. Thanks for the replies.

Parallel means parallel. It does not matter the view. What you described is skew line.

Parallel lines have the same vector directions. If it was slanted in any view it just isn't parallel.

[R_Redding]

so the tubine shaft can be no more than 25mm above the car center line.

Thats not quite correct..

All vertical measurements must be made from the reference plane ...Rule 3.2

The center line is a vertical line as seen from above .... appendix 1 - Drawing 1.

So the 5.1.6 text "within 25mm of the center line" is not referring to height ...if it was they would specify height from reference plane.



Rob

[SKI2]

Thank you PZ. I wasn't thinking of such a radical angle, maybe raising the front, via a mounting, with the shaft about a 10* from the horizontal. Just enough to allow for a larger compressor diameter.

But the "skew" angle explanation resolves it once and for all.

I had centerline imagined as a plane bisecting the vehicle into a left and right half. And therefore the shaft parallel laying within 25mm either side of that plane. That left wiggle room for an upward angled shaft within that space.

Your explanation shows why this idea would not meet the regs.

Although it would be interesting if a team proposed a horizontal compressor ("a flat fan") such that it was driven by a radial gear mounted on the MGK-H, with the turbo and connecting shaft mounted in their usual positions; turbo at the rear and shaft through the vee, MGK-H at the very front of the engine, and compressor slightly above. That layout might meet all regs?

[ojlopez]

I have always thought that Merc is using this setup (forgive me for such a crappy drawing) so they don't have to deal with a long shaft that runs from one side to the other of the engine spinning at almost 100,000 rpm. In this setup, the turbine and compressor spin at the same speed so no problems with the rules

Maybe Honda is trying to do the same for next year, as I read somewhere that they are developing a bigger turbo in case current setup proves to be a failure.

[R_Redding]

I have always thought that Merc is using this setup (forgive me for such a crappy drawing)

I think that idea was mentioned in the engine thread early on..

Its a double ended version of the planetary geared setup shown in a Red Bull promo video.


Rob

[Abarth]

I have always thought that Merc is using this setup (forgive me for such a crappy drawing) so they don't have to deal with a long shaft that runs from one side to the other of the engine spinning at almost 100,000 rpm. In this setup, the turbine and compressor spin at the same speed so no problems with the rules

Maybe Honda is trying to do the same for next year, as I read somewhere that they are developing a bigger turbo in case current setup proves to be a failure.

http://i.imgur.com/KjHfsYv.jpg

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 94#p603094

Not sure if this is within this rule:

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.

Strictly speaking, in your setup there would be two shaft assemblies for turbine and compressor (and another for MGU-H, which is OK).

[mrluke]

Could you not interpret the mguh as part of the shaft assembly?

[ringo]

The advantage to the no Mecedes setup is that the compressor and turbine are right beside each other and have their common shaft and angular velocity. The MGUH part has more freedom to do as they please; gearing assembly ect.

Mercedes now, could possibly have a motor that is designed for high angular velocities which are seen by the turbine and compressor. They may very well have advanced motor technology that permits such high speed operation.

[NL_Fer]

Direct drive is more efficient than geared and 100000rpm shouldn't be a problem for an proper designed electric motor.

[wuzak]

Could you not interpret the mguh as part of the shaft assembly?

Yes, but the scenario above suggests that the MGUH shaft spins at different speed to the turbine and compressor, which would be illegal.

[wuzak]

The advantage to the no Mecedes setup is that the compressor and turbine are right beside each other and have their common shaft and angular velocity. The MGUH part has more freedom to do as they please; gearing assembly ect.

Mercedes now, could possibly have a motor that is designed for high angular velocities which are seen by the turbine and compressor. They may very well have advanced motor technology that permits such high speed operation.

The Mercedes MGUH could have a hollow shaft, through which the turbo's shaft assembly could fit. The MGUH could then be connected to the turbo's shaft using a planetary gear set. The advantage of the planetary gear set is that the gear loadings balance out, so as to not produce a load on the spinning shaft.

The MGUH could be mounted to a structure which holds intermediate supports for the shaft.

[gruntguru]

Could you not interpret the mguh as part of the shaft assembly?

Yes, but the scenario above suggests that the MGUH shaft spins at different speed to the turbine and compressor, which would be illegal.

I thought the MGUH could be geared to run at a different speed to the turbomachinery?

[wuzak]

Could you not interpret the mguh as part of the shaft assembly?

Yes, but the scenario above suggests that the MGUH shaft spins at different speed to the turbine and compressor, which would be illegal.

I thought the MGUH could be geared to run at a different speed to the turbomachinery?

What was suggested was the MGUH's shaft be part of the turbo's shaft assembly, with gearing at each end to enable the MGUH to spin at a different speed to the turbine/compressor.

The MGUH's shaft would, therefore, become part of the turbo's shaft assembly, and would have to spin at the same speed.

[gruntguru]

Thanks Wuzak.