Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[FoxHound]

In a symbiotic relationship both parties stand to gain their proportional share.

You are neglecting the single most argument I'm making: it creates a spending war, where HAAS gains a little and Ferrari a lot. It's highly disproportional since Ferrari effectively doubles development input, where HAAS only enjoys half of that input.

I'm not defending what they are doing. But if you are comparing what Haas and Ferrari are doing to Red Bull and Renault's possible arrangement, they are completely different.

Red Bull do not help Renault, and Renault do not help Red Bull after the arrangement is made.
you could argue it's an extension of what they already have....
Red Bull pay Renault for engines, and Renault give them engines. Only now, Once the payment is made, the link is severed and the Red Bull become responsible.

I reiterate.... you know it makes sense Turbo !

[turbof1]

In a symbiotic relationship both parties stand to gain their proportional share.

You are neglecting the single most argument I'm making: it creates a spending war, where HAAS gains a little and Ferrari a lot. It's highly disproportional since Ferrari effectively doubles development input, where HAAS only enjoys half of that input.

I'm not defending what they are doing. But if you are comparing what Haas and Ferrari are doing to Red Bull and Renault's possible arrangement, they are completely different.

Red Bull do not help Renault, and Renault do not help Red Bull after the arrangement is made.
you could argue it's an extension of what they already have....
Red Bull pay Renault for engines, and Renault give them engines. Only now, Once the payment is made, the link is severed and the Red Bull become responsible.

I reiterate.... you know it makes sense Turbo !

And I reiterate: outside the world of F1 it makes sense, but not in a sport where greed is your primary concern .

[FoxHound]

F1 does not exist in some alternate universe. F1 is a business, and operates as one.

It is the real world, actually more real than the real world. It gives you machinations of how things actually work in business. Witness how Bernie does his thing, regardless of the FIA.
How else do you explain a veto to a competitor in a fair sport? That transcends fairness, and yet we call it a sport with rules equally attributable to all competitors.

Similarly, witness how powerbrokers ride roughshod over international law. The only difference is bernie does it in full view, in the real world...keep thinking your vote counts.

[turbof1]

F1 does not exist in some alternate universe. F1 is a business, and operates as one.

It is the real world, actually more real than the real world. It gives you machinations of how things actually work in business. Witness how Bernie does his thing, regardless of the FIA.
How else do you explain a veto to a competitor in a fair sport? That transcends fairness, and yet we call it a sport with rules equally attributable to all competitors.

Similarly, witness how powerbrokers ride roughshod over international law. The only difference is bernie does it in full view, in the real world...keep thinking your vote counts.

So, where does this contravenes my statement about greed and self-interest?

You are confusing fairness for a lack of structure and authoritive entity btw. I never claimed we live in a fair world .

(Last reply on this btw; I get dragged into this absolute meaningless debate over and over again, only to realise I don't really care that much about it afterwards. If you want to hear it: you win. Here's your serenate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04854XqcfCY)

[ripper]

With the deal that Ferrari and Haas have it is possible to circumvent the rules only for this season? Next season also Haas will have a fixed amount of windtunnel and CFD hours, right? So Ferrari will not be able to expoit it anymore... which (illegal?) advantages will Ferrari get from this partnership from next season?

I find suspicious that one owner has two teams (but maybe I'm just malfident) and I don't believe that there won't be any exchange of information between Renault and Ilmor (or Ferrari and Abarth, Mercedes and AMG, Honda and Mugen). This matter can create a serious and huge problem, I hope they regulate it firmly

[FoxHound]

Wait....you are using WEC as an example?

There are no engine issues in that sport?

Toyota have been forced to produce a completely new engine for 2016. The equilibrium between the differing concepts are non existent.

F1 currently is unique in that way that the regulator actually is not in power to keep order and put down guidelines. It's chaos since we now have situations where top teams can just reinterpete rules where they can bend around regulatory limitations on development.

This is not unique, there are contemporary examples of everyday life which proves it's not F1 unique.
Congress lobbying? Invading another country unilaterally? Privacy freedoms scrapped? Detainment without charge? Banker corruption? Human right violations? State sponsored copyright infringement? Press manipulation?
State sponsored murder?
That has F1 covered, Turbo.

So keep thinking F1 is representative for the world . You should be lucky it isn't. Not saying we live in a fair world, far from it. It's better to live in an unfair world then in a world without bounds on excesses.

Is there Irony in there somewhere??
To prove my point, Bernie has pulled a few billion dollars out of F1. He takes from this business you call a sport....and gives to his beloved offspring...this:



F1 is not detached from the real world, it is the epitome of the real world. The have's and the have not's.

[FoxHound]

I find suspicious that one owner has two teams (but maybe I'm just malfident)

I've yet to see a strong case against any data transfer between these 2 two teams
My supposition is that the owner may have a pendrive that can act as a data transfer, with the feeble FIA not being able to devise a test to prove it.

[turbof1]

There are no engine issues in that sport?

There is a strong governing structure dealing with engine issues. Aside from your inability to distinct unfairness from lack of structure, WEC issues seem very petty to say the least in comparison to F1. WEC is what F1 should be. Unfairness earned Ecclestone a nice mansion, a lack of structure has nothing to do with that (it's an awesome house he has though!) nor what I tried to underline.

I've yet to see a strong case against any data transfer between these 2 two teams

Well, if you don't mind it's pre 2010:






Prior to 2010, Toro Rosso had flat out the exact same chassis and roughly the same aerodynamics as Red Bull (they did not always used the same upgrades as Red Bull did due lower budget). After 2010, they had to build their own chassis and aero, but they infact kept developing at Red Bull Technology, who became a supplier. Red Bull Technology is the actual Red Bull team where the staff is employed.

I find suspicious that one owner has two teams (but maybe I'm just malfident) and I don't believe that there won't be any exchange of information between Renault and Ilmor (or Ferrari and Abarth, Mercedes and AMG, Honda and Mugen). This matter can create a serious and huge problem, I hope they regulate it firmly

That can be achieved if you have a strong governing party in control. The FIA currently is not capable of doing so. I share your suspicion since Ilmor will require support and education on managing the PU. Rather, I find it more likely the PU will be branded under Ilmor, but will be managed firmly by Renault without a transfer of IP. Meaning also Renault stays in charge of upgrading the PU Red Bull runs.

[FoxHound]

There is a strong governing structure dealing with engine issues. Aside from your inability to distinct unfairness from lack of structure, WEC issues seem very petty to say the least in comparison to F1. WEC is what F1 should be.

It's FIA sanctioned. Which means the same body that resides over F1, resides over the WEC. Which means you are saying the FIA are doing a good job here, inspite of the issues I've said.
Much like a chef preparing a meal you like to what you dislike.
Is the problem the ingredients, your taste or the chef?

I'll say the chef.

Prior to 2010, Toro Rosso had flat out the exact same chassis and roughly the same aerodynamics as Red Bull (they did not always used the same upgrades as Red Bull did due lower budget). After 2010, they had to build their own chassis and aero, but they infact kept developing at Red Bull Technology, who became a supplier. Red Bull Technology is the actual Red Bull team where the staff is employed.

And RBT will under no circumstances transfer any data between both the Red Bull owned teams?
What's the point in running 2 teams then?

[turbof1]

It's FIA sanctioned. Which means the same body that resides over F1, resides over the WEC. Which means you are saying the FIA are doing a good job here, inspite of the issues I've said.
Much like a chef preparing a meal you like to what you dislike.
Is the problem the ingredients, your taste or the chef?

Ah but it's a different department of the FIA that rules it. The FIA also has 100% of the power in hands there, contrary to F1 where it only has 1/3. So if you'd like to point to any hypocrity: there is none. Nothing keeps an entity from governing one sport correctly and another sport incompetently. It's a variated palette of tastes . Note that I did say governing structure, which is more then just the entity behind it even if that same entity made that structure. The regulations are simply better. They have their own issues, but you and I can atleast agree that it's of any category that we have in F1, right?

And RBT will under no circumstances transfer any data between both the Red Bull owned teams?

What's the point in running 2 teams then?

I didn't disagree at all. Not everything you and I say actually ends up being an argument .

[FoxHound]

Ah but it's a different department of the FIA that rules it. The FIA also has 100% of the power in hands there, contrary to F1 where it only has 1/3. So if you'd like to point to any hypocrity: there is none. Nothing keeps an entity from governing one sport correctly and another sport incompetently. It's a variated palette of tastes .

See, I think the FIA is not fit for purpose.
WEC is every bit as cock-eyed as F1, if not more so. How can such vastly differing set of parameters be allowed?
I admire it, but it is definitely not fair in the literal context.
Applied to F1....how far down the road do you think Merc would be right now?

I didn't disagree at all. Not everything you and I say actually ends up being an argument .

I rarely post when I agree....

[turbof1]

WEC is every bit as cock-eyed as F1, if not more so. How can such vastly differing set of parameters be allowed?

But it atleast has a rigid governing structure. In the case of WEC, the FIA atleast is more or less entirely independent and in full command of the sport. You need that to keep a sport on the rails, else it will die under anarchy.

In F1, the governing structure consists out of the FIA for 1/3 which is partly funded by the FOM which also has 1/3 and finally 6 teams have 1/3. Nobody is in full command, and nobody is independent.

I think you'll agree with me that the WEC is gaining in popularity, while F1 is declining. A strong governing structure is not a guarantee to success, but it is a requirement.

Applied to F1....how far down the road do you think Merc would be right now?

They wouldn't enjoy the same relative dominance. Unfair? Perhaps yes, but Mercedes would have willingly signed up to be treated what can be deemed unfair.

[FoxHound]

But it atleast has a rigid governing structure. In the case of WEC, the FIA atleast is more or less entirely independent and in full command of the sport. You need that to keep a sport on the rails, else it will die under anarchy.

In F1, the governing structure consists out of the FIA for 1/3 which is partly funded by the FOM which also has 1/3 and finally 6 teams have 1/3. Nobody is in full command, and nobody is independent.

I think you'll agree with me that the WEC is gaining in popularity, while F1 is declining. A strong governing structure is not a guarantee to success, but it is a requirement.

When 2 VW group competitors make a game of it, it is more attractive. But I'll let you figure out the red herring there...

They wouldn't enjoy the same relative dominance. Unfair? Perhaps yes, but Mercedes would have willingly signed up to be treated what can be deemed unfair.

You misinterpret me. I mean how much more ahead of the rest would they be?
Marko is already calling the PU106 Merc a "masterpiece". Such praise does not come unwarranted.

[turbof1]

When 2 VW group competitors make a game of it, it is more attractive. But I'll let you figure out the red herring there...

I actually sincerely believe those 2 are independent as far as competition goes. You'll probably make case of it that it's naïve, and I don't necessarily disagree, but I do think they remain atleast competitive against one another. There will be tech transfer between the 2, yes. Infact, I believe last year both had the same innovative rear wing concept.

Still, they run entirely different types of PUs. The rules are open enough to actually have room for that. And it does not lead to a spending war where Toyota enters Lexus into the sports. The VW group entered 2 independent teams, that's my take on it. Even if the contrary, I'd still say WEC is better governed then F1, simply because F1 currently is not controllable.

You misinterpret me. I mean how much more ahead of the rest would they be?

They would be less ahead. The rules on development and testing are more open. F1 runs near a standard-spec engine compared to WEC, meaning any advantage you can get is difficult for the competition to claw back on.

[FoxHound]

When 2 VW group competitors make a game of it, it is more attractive. But I'll let you figure out the red herring there...

I actually sincerely believe those 2 are independent as far as competition goes. You'll probably make case of it that it's naïve, and I don't necessarily disagree, but I do think they remain atleast competitive against one another. There will be tech transfer between the 2, yes. Infact, I believe last year both had the same innovative rear wing concept.

Still, they run entirely different types of PUs. The rules are open enough to actually have room for that. And it does not lead to a spending war where Toyota enters Lexus into the sports. The VW group entered 2 independent teams, that's my take on it. Even if the contrary, I'd still say WEC is better governed then F1, simply because F1 currently is not controllable.

VW covered their bases, the rules demanded it. What better way to do it than with 2 marques?
F1 does not go that far.