Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Brian Coat]

On the long designs balance must be very tricky: Even if you could balance to some ridiculous level (guess: lower than ISO G1 doubtful at these rpms?), alignment and thermal /dynamic distortion will also affect the vibrations - a lot.

But relatively 'developable' (with time) to the required performance: Compared to (say) sizing the turbo wrong?

[Thunder]

the user muramasa from the autosport Forums was able to take some more pictures from the PU at the Honda event at Motegi. This is one of them. Awesome Honda let's People near the Engine. =D> =D>



More:

[Wazari]

Hmmm...Turbochargers themselves are bench tested all the time at different RPM's to check for material fatigue, vibration "mechanical resonance" issues and volumetric efficiency among other things. So I don't think resonance would be an issue with turbocharger itself. We used to check for vibration issues with turbos back in the 80's as they can cause premature wear within itself especially with bearings and seals. Now with the connecting hardware, I can see where this might be an issue, where I can see it might limit MGU-H's maximum RPM input. I still believe though, that heat dissipation was the main issue limiting MGU-H output vs. resonance issues.

[pgfpro]

Thunders thanks for the post with pics!!!

Lots of information in the first pic, now if the other teams would share the same pic......

[Andres125sx]

Awesome Honda let's People near the Engine. =D> =D>

Wich IMHO proves next season PU will be completely different/new. Speciallly considering they´re developing a new concept wich no other manufacturer have used before, so if they´re not afraid of competitors taking note of their solutions probably 2016 PU must be using one or two bolts from this PU as much

What version is this? The first used in Australia?

[trinidefender]

Hmmm...Turbochargers themselves are bench tested all the time at different RPM's to check for material fatigue, vibration "mechanical resonance" issues and volumetric efficiency among other things. So I don't think resonance would be an issue with turbocharger itself. We used to check for vibration issues with turbos back in the 80's as they can cause premature wear within itself especially with bearings and seals. Now with the connecting hardware, I can see where this might be an issue, where I can see it might limit MGU-H's maximum RPM input. I still believe though, that heat dissipation was the main issue limiting MGU-H output vs. resonance issues.

Wazari-San and others more knowledgable on vibration related issues than me. Can how and the points of where the turbocharger is mounted to the PU as well as the PU being mounted in the car instead of on a dyno or flow bench change the resonant frequency?

One thought I am having is the ICE is mounted directly to the chassis, transmission and other parts of the car. When the ICE is running it will have particular vibration characteristics that will be different than when it is mounted to a dyno. Correct? Now how would these different vibration levels and frequencies affect he turbocharger shaft when it itself has its own vibrations?

[DiogoBrand]

Please don't murder me for my lack of knowledge, but is that an axial turbine?

[GoranF1]

Big thanks to @Thunders and @Muramassa

[trinidefender]

Please don't murder me for my lack of knowledge, but is that an axial turbine?

Looking at it from that angle I would have to say no. Looking at images of the exterior of the PU it looks like the exhaust enters the turbine radially so while this is indicative of a radial turbine it is not a guarantee. The reason I say that is Honeywell has developed a turbocharger with an axial turbine that looks similar to a (conventional for automotive application) radial turbine from the outside. I would however place my money on it being a radial turbine.

Here are 2 pictures to show the similarities and compare.



Something I do see from the picture in the exhaust is that of what looks like two wastegate ports.

[Joseki]

I don't know why but I have always imagined a turbin to have a much more "smooth" layout such as this:



(Yes it's a normal PC fan"

[turbof1]

Awesome stuff, guys! Keep it going. =D>

[Brian Coat]

Does any one reckon that's a dummy impeller?

Doesn't look like a 3D CFD solver has optimised it to the last micron does it?

[NL_Fer]

Does any one reckon that's a dummy impeller?

Doesn't look like a 3D CFD solver has optimised it to the last micron does it?

Maybe it needs to be "straight" to prevent it from exploding at 130000rpm

[HeadofNewey]

Does any one reckon that's a dummy impeller?

Doesn't look like a 3D CFD solver has optimised it to the last micron does it?

It does like something you would use to circulate the fluid with, not extract energy from it... it might just be something for show. But then again the PU does look to be fully built up so who knows. Maybe they will carry over the TC concept to next years PU so they tried to keep it secret.

[Wazari]

Wazari-San and others more knowledgable on vibration related issues than me. Can how and the points of where the turbocharger is mounted to the PU as well as the PU being mounted in the car instead of on a dyno or flow bench change the resonant frequency?

One thought I am having is the ICE is mounted directly to the chassis, transmission and other parts of the car. When the ICE is running it will have particular vibration characteristics that will be different than when it is mounted to a dyno. Correct? Now how would these different vibration levels and frequencies affect he turbocharger shaft when it itself has its own vibrations?

I don't know if I'm more knowledgeable on vibration issues than you. Any object affixed to a moving part or a part housing moving part(s) is going to act as a dampener for that item. Obviously the size and material of the dampening agent will have an effect on vibration levels. However, I think it's important to first examine is the vibration a symptom of a fault or is it causing a fault. In my experience, vibration from the turbocharger itself was never an issue.

I think most here are talking about vibrations causing a failure. I can't see the resonance from the internals of the turbocharger itself being an issue but when you start attaching moving parts to a turbo then I can see the potential of vibrations being a symptom of a "fault". The vibration might accelerate the ultimate failure of the part, but usually it's a design or material flaw that causes the undesirable vibration. When a driver complains of a vibration it's always a symptom of a fault.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the vibration itself is usually not the problem but it's the cause of the vibration that's the real issue. Some hot rodders put these IMO crazy duration camshafts with high valve lifts to intentionally cause vibrations or shaking. Does that in itself cause any damage to the engine, typically no. However, the vibration might cause interior pieces to rattle and come loose as a by-product. So going back to the F1 PU, someone mentioned Merc having vibrations with their long connection from turbo to MGU-H. The vibrations itself might be a nuisance but was it the cause of the vibration or the result of accelerated wear/failure from the vibration that was the real issue; could be both.