Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

We can argue until we're blue in the face about who knows what. Look at what actually works, and then tell me why it's wrong?



Listen to the engine when it's halfway down the straight, does it not sound like it's turbo is stalling?

[gruntguru]

What's to argue? Unless you actually think you understand turbos better than the Honda engineers.

What specific time on the video do you think sounds like compressor stalling?

[hemichromis]

We can argue until we're blue in the face about who knows what. Look at what actually works, and then tell me why it's wrong?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxVqWfQZeOQ

Listen to the engine when it's halfway down the straight, does it not sound like it's turbo is stalling?

I'm hearing something at about 300kph, is what you are talking about?

I've missed watching Alonso drive!

[Abarth]

[....] The MGU-H can be clutched, and I imagine all teams clutch it, otherwise the turbine would never work at all. [...]

Sorry what??

The MGU-H is an electrical machine, and it can be controlled to be a motor or a generator, with a variable frequency drive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-frequency_drive . That drive together with an appropriate control electronics and algorithms can regulate out any issues regarding inertia, max boost etc. as the energy store is powerful enough to deliver wat is needed to spool up, keep spooled or brake the turbine / MGU-H / compressor assembly.
And I would go so far to say that they do not clutch it at all.

[Juzh]

Listen to the engine when it's halfway down the straight, does it not sound like it's turbo is stalling?

What? Do you mean ers cutting?

[Facts Only]

The way some people are talking you'd think that Honda got there Turbo from a 1980's 911 ,piped it on with some blue hoses from Samco and then welded and alernator in the middle.

Its 2016 in F1 people, for a site that prides itslef on technical knowledge there are alot of people who cant move their knowldege past a Nissan 200sx

I would go so far as to say it should not really be called a turbocharger in a traditional sense, it really is an energy recovery system (or ERS if you like). Its a device that spins at its optimum speed harvesting enrgy from the exhaust, some is converted into boost pressure and most into electrical energy. It doesn't slow down in corners as the MGUH controls the speed 100% of the time either powering or harvesting as needed. There is no lag (again its not 1978).

I believe Honda only made one mistake (a big one), they assumed that the 33s of 160bhp MGUK power from the battery was all that was going to be used and overlooked the unlimited direct link from the MGUH to the MGUK. By the time they realised what Merc/Ferrari/Renault were doing the MGUH/K were already spec'd to only harvest and deploy that 33s of 160bhp and it was too late to redesign them for the capacity needed to be harvesting and deploying all of the time. All the talk of heat management and size Zero problems is due to the fact that to be anywhere near competitive they needed to run the ERS components much harder than they were designed for but couldnt make them bigger to deal with the packaging constraints.

What Honda built for 2015 is what the FIA probably imagined they would get from everyone; a turbocharged combustion engine with a battery that powers and MGUK and an MGUH that helps charge it up. Not what we actually hve which is a complete integrated system that always working to harvest and deploy as musch energy as possible.

As for the ruddy clutch theory rearing its head AGAIN. A clutch is just a device for wasting energy.

[Mr.G]

... is what the FIA probably imagined they would get from everyone; a turbocharged combustion engine with a battery that powers and MGUK and an MGUH that helps charge it up.

This is the never ending issue with FIA

...Not what we actually have, which is a complete integrated system that always working to harvest and deploy as much energy as possible.

And this is how it always will be

[Juzh]

I believe Honda only made one mistake (a big one), they assumed that the 33s of 160bhp MGUK power from the battery was all that was going to be used and overlooked the unlimited direct link from the MGUH to the MGUK.

I don't believe this for 1 second. Everyone with half a brain cell foresaw an unlimited mgu-k/h connection as soon as 2014 technical regs got published. Especially since you can only harvest 2MJ in a single lap from the K, which would make it only 16.5s @ 160 bhp per lap if you have no H assistance.



http://www.somersf1.co.uk/2014/01/f1-in ... s-and.html

If honda really did miss something like this heads would have to roll. I'd be an unforgivable mistake. More likely they simply didn't have the knowledge/time to make it work.

[Facts Only]

I believe Honda only made one mistake (a big one), they assumed that the 33s of 160bhp MGUK power from the battery was all that was going to be used and overlooked the unlimited direct link from the MGUH to the MGUK.

I don't believe this for 1 second. Everyone with half a brain cell foresaw an unlimited mgu-k/h connection as soon as 2014 technical regs got published. Especially since you can only harvest 2MJ in a single lap from the K, which would make it only 16.5s @ 160 bhp per lap if you have no H assistance.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DDJ43WpUDWc/U ... iagram.jpg

http://www.somersf1.co.uk/2014/01/f1-in ... s-and.html

If honda really did miss something like this heads would have to roll. I'd be an unforgivable mistake. More likely they simply didn't have the knowledge/time to make it work.

Well they obviously missed something huge or they wouldn't be 4 seconds off the pace and not having enough energy to run the MGUK for a whole lap would they.

Perhaps they just didnt anticipate the massive amount of exhaust energy that could be recovered even when running at max RPM on a fuel limited formula.

When we were working on it at the early stages we didnt realise straight away that you could bypass the ES completely between the H and K and there was much debate about whether a direct link powering all the time would be legal or not as it seemd to be cut off by the Mj limit specifications.

But thanks for the downvote anyway.

[Juzh]

When we were working on it at the early stages we didnt realise straight away that you could bypass the ES completely between the H and K and there was much debate about whether a direct link powering all the time would be legal or not as it seemd to be cut off by the Mj limit specifications.

"Citation needed".

[turbof1]

I don't think they missed out on the concept that you can deploy ERS 120kw for more then 33,33s. Rather, I think they underestimated it, both in component reliability as potentional. For manufacturers like Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari this might have been a different case since the rules where still relatively in their infancy back then. I can imagine there being confusion for a few years until a TD or something like that brought clarity.

"Citation needed".

Give the guy a break. I can vouch for him and his experience .

[hemichromis]

As i understood it was a vibration problem more than anything.

[Juzh]

"Citation needed".

Give the guy a break. I can vouch for him and his experience .

I know, and I appreciate his posts immensely, but honda simply forgetting/not noticing something of such importance just seemed out of whack. I find your explanation much more plausible.

[Facts Only]

When we were working on it at the early stages we didnt realise straight away that you could bypass the ES completely between the H and K and there was much debate about whether a direct link powering all the time would be legal or not as it seemd to be cut off by the Mj limit specifications.

"Citation needed".

My Memory, Of my Job - 2011

[godlameroso]

What's to argue? Unless you actually think you understand turbos better than the Honda engineers.

What specific time on the video do you think sounds like compressor stalling?

Main straight, back straight, take your pick, any time the car gets to 8th gear.