Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Wazari]

I've heard other rumors about some problems Honda is having on dyno: they seems to have good power but it's still unreliable, 17 days and we'll know more.

Were these in the media? My understanding is that things are progressing nicely except for minor issues here and there.

[davidfroshanzen]

I've heard other rumors about some problems Honda is having on dyno: they seems to have good power but it's still unreliable, 17 days and we'll know more.

Were these in the media? My understanding is that things are progressing nicely except for minor issues here and there.

detail for the progress please ,,,,,

[FW17]

My understanding is that at AD, the ICE was producing in the neighborhood of 630 to 640 HP.

https://twitter.com/F1sMyDrug/status/695298241655672832 That is from Renault

I for one do not believe that they had 850 HP last year (probably the target they missed by a mile)

They are speaking of 875 HP for start of the season. Media speculation is they would be 30-40 HP behind Merc

Is it BS or they are taking something that is likely?

[lkocev]

I think those figures are pushing it even if its combined ICE and MGU-K at maximum power, but ICE alone I don't think would be true.

I used specific energy of gasoline at 45.8 MJ/kg and the 100 kg/hour fuel flow rate, and yielded potential power at 1272.2222 kW. I used 1kW = 1.34102hp and yielded 652.4884kW from 875hp. 652.4884/1272.222 = .5129 .... I highly doubt the ICE has an efficiency that high. My guess is this is combined power quoted, not of ICE alone, and even then I think the figure is suspect.

If we use power estimate of ICE Wazari gave us, 640hp, that yields 477.2487kW, which is about 55kW less than the 652.4884 figure, less 120kw MGU-K, which would be 532.4884kW. Isolated efficiency of ICE at power 477.2487kW would be .3751 which to me seems might be a little bit low, and isolated efficiency of ICE at power 532.4884 would be .4185 ....

Efficiencies of ICE's in excess of 40 percent is what many of the guys here were approximating in the V6 engine formula thread during 2014, so they might be true, but I would always take something like that with a grain of salt, to me 41.85% efficiency seems quite high, I'm not sure its true, particularly when the approximations for Honda yield 37.51%, that to me seems like too big a gap. I'd realistically expect the ICE's to be much closer together in terms of efficiency, and consequently power.

On the other hand, I remember some forum members were approximating as high as 43% ICE efficiency, so who knows. It just seems odd to me that people are saying Honda ICE is better than Renault, yet those figures or 875hp would make it significantly better than the Honda ICE if the Wazari estimate is correct. No disrespect to you Wazari, but either the figure you quoted is too low, or that 875hp figure is mushroom food. To be fair, I think it might a bit of both, I suspect the Honda ICE is a little bit more powerful than what you have quoted, and I suspect the Renault is not really 875hp combined.

[Wazari]

The quote I gave was based on what I understood the ICE output to be in race trim specifically for AD. It is extremely difficult for me to believe that ICE efficiency above .40 can be maintained throughout a race. Maybe for extremely short periods with perfect conditions with regards to temp, fuel composition, atmospheric pressure, etc. I think there is a little hype with Renault's figures but who really knows....???

I speculate Honda's target for the ICE for 2016 was around 680-690 peak HP. I don't take the previous post as disrespect. This is just a discussion. I'm just an old retired guy waiting for fishing season....

[FW17]

.....

I think 875 hp was meant from combined ICE and ERS


It would also mean that Merc are running 46% from ICE and 54% overall which I think is just a media wet dream.

[jesa7271]

Wazari ....
Honda know the minimum target regarding energie from ERS and horsepower from ICE.
Did they hit there own target for 2016 ?

[lkocev]

.....

I think 875 hp was meant from combined ICE and ERS


It would also mean that Merc are running 46% from ICE and 54% overall which I think is just a media wet dream.

Yeah 46% sounds like a bad joke to me.

Wazari its really difficult to come to a decent approximation on power output. From one side, the efficiencies seem unattainable, but on the other, the top speed these current generation cars are hitting is quite high, I expect they'd have more combined ICE+MGU-K power than the previous NA V8's. Surely the reduction of drag from the loss of beam wing and reduced frontal area of the rear wing is not enough to give them such higher top speeds, I just think that overall combined power must be higher.

If we consider the NA V8's were somewhere around 750hp, I don't think its unreasonable to approximate the combined power of the current power units to be in the region of 820-840. These would yield a ICE efficiency of .3863 and .3980 respectively, which I think would be likely.

[GoranF1]

I believe there will be some very surprised faces this year,about how close did Honda and Renault came to Merc&Ferrari in terms of PU.
Progress Ferrari did last year did not surprised me at all, i think this kind of thing are and should be normal whit the resources this manufactures invest.
If the engine rules stay sable for 2017 i expect all 4 manufactures to be whitin 30-ish Bhp, and we start to discuss bending wings again

[Andres125sx]

I'm just an old retired guy waiting for fishing season....

One of those when they start talking, people should shut up and listen carefully

[Andres125sx]

So they have an engine development freeze until the engines are approaching parity then open development?

Isn't that the opposite of the V8 era?

Yes it is, because it is the opposite of what anyone with a brain would do... but this is F1, common sense is not taken into account

[Petroltorque]

The efficiency quoted is not of the ICE but the ICE / MGU-HEAT / MGU-KINETIC combo. There was a seminal paper I Race Engine Technology explaining the workings of these hybrid PUS. Under a sustain mode it's possible to push th output to above 750bhp with an added boost of between 50-60bhp from the energy store. The secret seems to be th unlimited energy take off from the MGU-HEAT driving the ICE and recharging the energy store multiple times up to th 2MJ limit per lap. I suppose further efficiency can be found from higher performing fuel but I think MHPE have probably already hit th limit on the PU efficiency.

[wuzak]

.....

I think 875 hp was meant from combined ICE and ERS


It would also mean that Merc are running 46% from ICE and 54% overall which I think is just a media wet dream.

Yeah 46% sounds like a bad joke to me.

Wazari its really difficult to come to a decent approximation on power output. From one side, the efficiencies seem unattainable, but on the other, the top speed these current generation cars are hitting is quite high, I expect they'd have more combined ICE+MGU-K power than the previous NA V8's. Surely the reduction of drag from the loss of beam wing and reduced frontal area of the rear wing is not enough to give them such higher top speeds, I just think that overall combined power must be higher.

If we consider the NA V8's were somewhere around 750hp, I don't think its unreasonable to approximate the combined power of the current power units to be in the region of 820-840. These would yield a ICE efficiency of .3863 and .3980 respectively, which I think would be likely.

Mercedes have stated that their combustion engine, without assistance from the MGUK, is as powerful as the V8s. They further stated that their power unit was more powerful than the last of the V10s!

Ferrari have been talking about efficiencies approaching 45% and beyond.

Renault have stated that their 2016 PU is good for 875hp all up, and 850hp in 2015. It has also been suspected that their PU was 60-70hp down on Mercedes', which fits in quite well - 750hp from the Merc, 690hp from the Renault.

The "self sustaining" (ie in turbo-compound mode, without needing the ES to power the MGUK) is probably upwards of the 820-840hp you suggest, at least for Mercedes and Ferrari.

[Tommy Cookers]

The efficiency quoted is not of the ICE but the ICE / MGU-HEAT / MGU-KINETIC combo. There was a seminal paper I Race Engine Technology explaining the workings of these hybrid PUS. ........

so if the MGU-K power limit was raised to about 800 kW the so-called efficiency would exceed 100%
(the combined ICE power and MU-K power now exceeding the fuel power at the 100 kg/hr rate limit)

so F1 has in its hands the way to save the world !!

[lkocev]

I think 875 hp was meant from combined ICE and ERS


It would also mean that Merc are running 46% from ICE and 54% overall which I think is just a media wet dream.

Yeah 46% sounds like a bad joke to me.

Wazari its really difficult to come to a decent approximation on power output. From one side, the efficiencies seem unattainable, but on the other, the top speed these current generation cars are hitting is quite high, I expect they'd have more combined ICE+MGU-K power than the previous NA V8's. Surely the reduction of drag from the loss of beam wing and reduced frontal area of the rear wing is not enough to give them such higher top speeds, I just think that overall combined power must be higher.

If we consider the NA V8's were somewhere around 750hp, I don't think its unreasonable to approximate the combined power of the current power units to be in the region of 820-840. These would yield a ICE efficiency of .3863 and .3980 respectively, which I think would be likely.

Mercedes have stated that their combustion engine, without assistance from the MGUK, is as powerful as the V8s. They further stated that their power unit was more powerful than the last of the V10s!

Ferrari have been talking about efficiencies approaching 45% and beyond.

Renault have stated that their 2016 PU is good for 875hp all up, and 850hp in 2015. It has also been suspected that their PU was 60-70hp down on Mercedes', which fits in quite well - 750hp from the Merc, 690hp from the Renault.

The "self sustaining" (ie in turbo-compound mode, without needing the ES to power the MGUK) is probably upwards of the 820-840hp you suggest, at least for Mercedes and Ferrari.

Obviously I don't have any inside knowledge, but these efficiency factors just seem impossibly high to me. I mean using my earlier figures, ICE output of 750hp would be .4396 efficient! If it is true, that is truly remarkable, but on the other end, the V8 I believe were approximated somewhere around .32 efficient, and that is outstanding for an NA engine, but to go from that all the way to .4396, I don't know, just sounds too good to be true to me.

As far as being as powerful as the last of the V10's I don't think that is true, even with 750hp ICE output. The addition of MGU-K yields like 910hp, those final V10's from memory where well in excess of 950hp, so I don't believe that to be a truthful statement.

As far as "self-sustaining" mode being above my 820-840 guess, and guys keep in mind it is an approximation, again like the efficiency factors, just seems like too good to be true to me. Of course I'm almost certainly wrong, possibly the Mercedes and Ferrari are above these targets, who knows. But where does that leave Honda? People are saying the ICE alone might have been on par with Ferrari, but performance suggests otherwise. In any case, we don't really have anyway to know, some times I read figures quoted and they just seem a little but unreasonable to me.

"Ferrari have been talking about efficiencies approaching 45% and beyond." Well, this is kind of what I mean, you know, approaching 45%, is not beyond 45%, and beyond 45% has already superseded 45% ... so what is it really? I'm sorry wuzak if I come across as being a jerk to you, but this to me seems like just talk. Its all the media do they tinker with numbers and throw numbers about but they have no basis in fact or reality. Look all I'm trying to say is that efficiencies approaching 40%is seriously impressive. Beyond that, who knows, I suppose much is possible, but you know, there are limits. And to that, I might add, if Ferrari's ICE was 45% efficient, it would be more powerful than the Mercedes with their supposed 750hp ICE so what seems reasonable to you? I personally think both of those figures are not truthful.