Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[ringo]

I believe 800hp is max these engine makers can squeeze out of the ICE.
And yes the thermal efficiencies look unreal, but if compared to a diesel engine, then it's not hard to imagine.
Mercedes are definitely over the 750hp mark i think. What is notable is that mercedes are going bigger and bigger with their turbo charger system.
Honda is barely teasing the size of the turbo. I'm not sure if i can be confident of their expected distance to Mercedes.

[shady]

"Mercedes believes its power unit was delivering more than 45 percent thermal efficiency last year – and a graph shown to journalists suggested that the step being prepared for 2016 could be as big a leap forward as the team made between 2014 and 2015."

So we have a backwards confirmation on the TE of the W06s PU.. which should go up according to the article, and Andy Cowell so I think the calculations should keep this in mind.


http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... 16-671911/

[Tommy Cookers]

I don't know how to paste twitter post, but Andrew Benson says Merc PU is approaching 50% thermal efficiency. Let's say they have 900hp. Together with 100kg/h flow limit this gives fuel energy density of 48.3MJ/kg.

Merc months ago gave a LCV of iirc 44.72 MJ/kg
I don't think they claim an advance on this value
anyway TE is in principle independent of HV

there must be a biofuel constituent
biobutanol is likely
commercial intent to produce from the bio(butanol) feedstock a higher CV (than butanol's) would need to be established

[Wazari]

Now I really need to think about this. Thanks guys...........I thought my engineering days were long gone.

Hmmm, at least 5.75% must be biofuel, 87 min octane, hmmm.........

[damager21]

It is interesting to see that Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault, all have recently spoken about a big leap in 2016 engine performance. Honda is the only manufacturer who has not revealed any information yet. I am sure Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault would be anxious and curious to know what Honda is up to.

Also, I dont think Honda ICE would be more than 50hp behind Mercedes. I believe Honda will be around 720hp while Mercedes around 770hp. If end of last year Honda was 50hp behind, there is no way that this gap would increase further.

[Wazari]

I can safely say that Honda's ICE did not produce over 660 HP with the fuel flow restrictions in 2015. It has produced over 700 HP on the dyno without the fuel flow restriction.

[jure]

I don't know how to paste twitter post, but Andrew Benson says Merc PU is approaching 50% thermal efficiency. Let's say they have 900hp. Together with 100kg/h flow limit this gives fuel energy density of 48.3MJ/kg.

Merc months ago gave a LCV of iirc 44.72 MJ/kg
I don't think they claim an advance on this value
anyway TE is in principle independent of HV

there must be a biofuel constituent
biobutanol is likely
commercial intent to produce from the bio(butanol) feedstock a higher CV (than butanol's) would need to be established

But taking this value for fuel energy density and 50% TE gives engine power of 830hp and ice power of 670hp. This fits nicely with Honda producing 640hp just from ice, while Renault obviously lied about their horsepower.

[Joseki]

I can safely say that Honda's ICE did not produce over 660 HP with the fuel flow restrictions in 2015. It has produced over 700 HP on the dyno without the fuel flow restriction.

I'm seriously struggling a lot to understand how we can have data so different from Mercedes to Honda. 660+160=820 hp for Honda at max power, Mercedes is reporting to be >900 HP, but it's sound impossible for me to believe there is a >80 hp difference, it didn't look that huge at full power and also everyone in the paddock believe Honda had a good ICE.

Maybe the ICE didn't express is full power because the turbo harmed its peek power?

[ncassi22]

[/quote]
I'm seriously struggling a lot to understand how we can have data so different from Mercedes to Honda. 660+160=820 hp for Honda at max power, Mercedes is reporting to be >900 HP, but it's sound impossible for me to believe there is a >80 hp difference, it didn't look that huge at full power and also everyone in the paddock believe Honda had a good ICE.
[/quote]

It' about 13hp per cylinder difference though. It'd be 115hp per cylinder for the Honda compared to 130hp for the Merc. lol if you phrase it that way it doesn't sound that massive a gap.

[ian_s]

i cant help but think that all these power figures being posted are all under different conditions.

Wazari could be quoting the Hondas self sustaining power as would be used in the race, and Mercedes could have been quoting their power output in qualifying mode, or even without a fuel flow restriction just so they can quote big numbers.
Wazari did state that Honda ran on the dyno without the fuel restriction, why wouldnt Merc do that?

[GoranF1]

I can safely say that Honda's ICE did not produce over 660 HP with the fuel flow restrictions in 2015. It has produced over 700 HP on the dyno without the fuel flow restriction.

If those numbers are correct,Mclaren had one hell of a chassis and aero....thats 80hp down on ICE and 240 when ERS died.
And lets say Alonso had a functional ERS in those last few laps in AD, if he did that time whit 80hp deficit in ICE,that says something about chassis as well.

[Joseki]

I can safely say that Honda's ICE did not produce over 660 HP with the fuel flow restrictions in 2015. It has produced over 700 HP on the dyno without the fuel flow restriction.

If those numbers are correct,Mclaren had one hell of a chassis and aero....thats 80hp down on ICE and 240 when ERS died.
And lets say Alonso had a functional ERS in those last few laps in AD, if he did that time whit 80hp deficit in ICE,that says something about chassis as well.

I don't think Mercedes run with much more power during the race.

[ollandos]

the gap between honda and mercedes 2015 PU is 20-30 hp.....on ice only.....the lap times isnt measure.....brakes,drivers,tires,aero makes huge differents...on time lap...i think mercedes says over 900hp as max quali mode with some trick with mgu-h...work all time or dyno power and not on wheels ...2014 mercedes ice =600-650, 2015= 675-725....2016 ????....

[PlatinumZealot]

I can safely say that Honda's ICE did not produce over 660 HP with the fuel flow restrictions in 2015. It has produced over 700 HP on the dyno without the fuel flow restriction.

I believe this. The Honda ICE definitely started the season with around that amount of power. Definitely down by about 90hp to 100hp.

@ Folks talking about the Mercedes engine; Andy Cowell already confirmed the ICE to be 740 to 760hp and the Battery assist total to be about 900 to 920hp. The engine was basically 42% efficient in 2015. Ominous what Mercedes will produce this year!

[gianluca.mateo]

I can safely say that Honda's ICE did not produce over 660 HP with the fuel flow restrictions in 2015. It has produced over 700 HP on the dyno without the fuel flow restriction.

I believe this. The Honda ICE definitely started the season with around that amount of power. Definitely down by about 90hp to 100hp.

@ Folks talking about the Mercedes engine; Andy Cowell already confirmed the ICE to be 740 to 760hp and the Battery assist total to be about 900 to 920hp. The engine was basically 42% efficient in 2015. Ominous what Mercedes will produce this year!

I think Wazari is talking about their latest and most powerful 2015 engine, not the one from the beginning of the year.