Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Wazari]

According to my sources; in 2015 in race trim at AD, Honda ICE 660 to 665 HP, Renault 645 to 650 HP, Ferrari 685 to 695 HP, Mercedes ICE 690 - 695 HP. These numbers are based on algorithms from race data and telemetry.

[Joseki]

According to my sources; in 2015 in race trim at AD, Honda ICE 660 to 665 HP, Renault 645 to 650 HP, Ferrari 685 to 695 HP, Mercedes ICE 690 - 695 HP. These numbers are based on algorithms from race data and telemetry.

Thank you Wazari, that's pure gold for us fans, you're doing more than the FIA/FOM/teams combined to provide us with interesting and useful data. =D>

[jure]

According to my sources; in 2015 in race trim at AD, Honda ICE 660 to 665 HP, Renault 645 to 650 HP, Ferrari 685 to 695 HP, Mercedes ICE 690 - 695 HP. These numbers are based on algorithms from race data and telemetry.

Awesome, this means Renault was nowhere close to 850hp and Merc neither was over 900hp.

[Blackout]

According to my sources; in 2015 in race trim at AD, Honda ICE 660 to 665 HP, Renault 645 to 650 HP, Ferrari 685 to 695 HP, Mercedes ICE 690 - 695 HP. These numbers are based on algorithms from race data and telemetry.

Awesome, this means Renault was nowhere close to 850hp and Merc neither was over 900hp.

They are talking about peak/max power...

[Joseki]

To me those numbers are more astonishing than the "qualy mode" ones, 100 kg of fuel for 305 km and almost 700 hp just from the ICE is a great result, they have probably 800 hp in race considering the ERS.

[ringo]

What we should note is that the Self sustaining power from a good MGUH can be the same as the 160hp limit to the MGUK.
That's the big stick that mercedes could be walking around with.
nonetheless these power discussions are quite interesting, and i've learned of many methods to increase engine power beyond what we think is possible. Saying that i don't think it's far fetched if one ICE at the start of the engine formula was as much as 100hp down. There are just too many ways to extract gobs of power with a change in combustion philosophy.

Honda are definitely playing catch up with combustion philosophy, but mostly their Heat recovery and air management.

[godlameroso]

What do you suppose is faster, a car that can deploy 160hp from the hybrid system continuously lap after lap yet down 40hp or a little less deployment something like 80% of the lap but being up 40hp?

[OO7]

What we should note is that the Self sustaining power from a good MGUH can be the same as the 160hp limit to the MGUK.
That's the big stick that mercedes could be walking around with.
nonetheless these power discussions are quite interesting, and i've learned of many methods to increase engine power beyond what we think is possible. Saying that i don't think it's far fetched if one ICE at the start of the engine formula was as much as 100hp down. There are just too many ways to extract gobs of power with a change in combustion philosophy.

Honda are definitely playing catch up with combustion philosophy, but mostly their Heat recovery and air management.

That would make the ES pretty much redundant. A small battery simply to spin up the turbo is all that would be required, however I think there is a minimum weight for the ES, so no weight saving benefits, lower c.g perhaps.

[ringo]

Well not necessarilly, the 160hp wont be developed consistently in all engine speeds and all modes. The battery would ask as a kind of buffer or flywheel to smooth out and fill the electrical power delivery to the MGUK.
But there is a lot of heat energy that can be recovered. 160hp isn't even half of it.
I suspect Mercedes can delivery that power from their MGUH. Maybe Scarbs can ask the teams how much they are harvesting from the turbine in 2015.

[lkocev]

What we should note is that the Self sustaining power from a good MGUH can be the same as the 160hp limit to the MGUK.
That's the big stick that mercedes could be walking around with.
nonetheless these power discussions are quite interesting, and i've learned of many methods to increase engine power beyond what we think is possible. Saying that i don't think it's far fetched if one ICE at the start of the engine formula was as much as 100hp down. There are just too many ways to extract gobs of power with a change in combustion philosophy.

Honda are definitely playing catch up with combustion philosophy, but mostly their Heat recovery and air management.

That would make the ES pretty much redundant. A small battery simply to spin up the turbo is all that would be required, however I think there is a minimum weight for the ES, so no weight saving benefits, lower c.g perhaps.

I agree ringo that 'self-sustaining' mode could potentially be as high as the MGU-K output limit, and like you say, I suspect that is really where Mercedes are ahead of the rest. I guess it really all comes down to the work capacity of the turbine doesn't it? You wrote in an earlier post that Mercedes are going bigger and bigger with the turbo combination, and it would appear perhaps Ferrari went larger for 2015 too, so it would appear from the outside that turbines with very high work capacities would be the way to go from a design perspective. At least in any case a work capacity high enough to run the compressor, and run the MGU-H in generator mode at 120kW.

As far as the ES being redundant, I suppose if engines have enough exhaust energy to run the MGU-H at maximum MGU-K output, then potentially it could make the ES redundant, but in any case it is mandated, and in such a case, the teams will come up with strategies to fully exploit it. There was some posts about the Mercedes 'qualifying' mode where MGU-H is not running at capacity and wastegates are bypassing more exhaust gas and reducing exhaust pressure. I believe this was typical qualifying practice for Mercedes. Also you should remember that the engines have variable speed, but fixed turbine geometry so that realistically will still push the engine towards a more narrow optimum engine speed range, and consequently I think the ES is something of a tool to supply more consistent power.

Back to turbine capacity, and I would expect that Honda would increase the work capacity of the turbine, in order to increase the power continually generated during 'self-sustaining' mode. Would the turbine become considerably larger, possibly, but possibly not. Stator geometry and impeller geometry could be changed with out having an effect, or not much effect on compressor housing size, so I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

[OO7]

Interestingly, an engineer at Renault is quoted to have said that they are where they need to be with the ERS and are currently only finding hundredths, but the real gains are found with combustion design.

Reading those comment,s one must assume that he doesn't believe Mercedes holds a notable advantage in ERS technology.

[Lucky]

According to my sources; in 2015 in race trim at AD, Honda ICE 660 to 665 HP, Renault 645 to 650 HP, Ferrari 685 to 695 HP, Mercedes ICE 690 - 695 HP. These numbers are based on algorithms from race data and telemetry.

I have not heard anything from my nephew in over a week. It was my understanding that they are not behind schedule, expecting 4 to 6% increase in output from ICE alone over latest 2015 spec ICE mostly from redesigned combustion chamber design to match revised fuel from Mobil. I hope they launch the new PU in the first session but I don't know. I don't know what the current schedule is...

665+5%=698.25 HP = Merc 2015

I'm sure many but not all answers will be revealed at next month's testing. Both McLaren and Honda seem very optimistic, much more than last year, (at least in Sakura) so I hope that is a sign of good things for 2016. We are know the problems and issues that need to be fixed. The question is how well did they address these issues. Both parties seem to think very well. I am curious to see how much rake the chassis has with PP's design and how much energy the MGU-H can extract from the turbo. At this point I am confident their ICE is just as good as any of their competition if not better.

ICE Honda 2016 = ICE Мерс 2015???

[Joseki]

665+5%=698.25 HP

660 + 4% = 686 HP
665 + 6% = 705 HP

But I don't think these numbers are accurate, we have to consider the fact that Honda with more energy recovered by the MGU-H will also have more fuel to use.

Maybe they'll start the season with 700-710 HP from the ICE.

[damager21]

Even I think ICE of Honda 2016 engine will produce 700 to 720 hp which could be 50 hp behind Mercedes. Interestingly though, if this was assumed to be true, I think it should not be a bad scenario for McLaren because while the engine maybe 50 hp short on power, its compact size and hence size zero philosophy will lead to aero benefits which would make up a bit for the gap.

To be honest, at this stage I dont think McLaren Honda will be able to beat Mercedes. The most important progress we all want them to make is on ERS. If they manage to resolve ERS and reliability issue, I think 2017 is when they will have a shot at the championship. ERS is the key, if they don't get it right, this will be another painful year.

In Monza, McLaren was 2.6 secs off Mercedes pace. Alonso mentioned that 0.3 secs is down to chassis and hence 2.3 secs could be down to engine. If ERS was available for only half the time I would assume only 80 hp for the entire lap and 50 hp down to ICE. So a very crude calculation would shows that 1.5 sec is down to ERS and 0.8 sec is down to ICE.

I know this is not the best way to arrive at these numbers because there are many other limitations which would have hindered the pace but this just goes to show the amount of time McLaren Honda can make up but just getting its ERS right.

[godlameroso]

It's typical Honda work ethos, it's actually very admirable, and going down their path is very unique. No one else has the willingess to fail miserably in order to learn deeply and tremendously, then pick themselves up dust themselves off and try again with even more determination. Look at all their engine programs, they never started at the very top, they systematically improved. Their LMP2 engine was a dud the first season, and now is a much better engine than the Nissan, or arguably any other. When they first came into F1 they were also complete duds only to go on and dominate, why should now be any different?