Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
j.yank
j.yank
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Joined: 08 Jul 2015, 13:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Facts Only wrote: You need a strong leader who gives a definitive unified direction for everyone to be working on together to achieve the best final outcome.
Two heads are better than one. If you place everything in one pot you gamble a lot. The strong leaders are double edged swords. If for some reason they have wrong concepts they are becoming a bigger problem rather solution.

I don't think that we have to over dramatize what has happen, especially that we don't know the full picture. I don't think that this is a sudden last minute decision. Which rises the question why this was publicized right now?

f1rules
f1rules
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Location: Denmark

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Sasha mentioned this last year in oct.

Sasha wrote:To back up Wazari statement that Honda is working on two different PU specs for next year.

Honda is working on a new PU with bigger compressor and better MGU-H for next year but it might not be ready by Feb 1 or 28!

So their Skunkworks(their best now and past engineers) is working on the backup plan(compressor still in V but about 10% bigger and getting the MGU-H to run 100% the whole lap).
Improving and fixing this years PU Turbocharger and MGU-H.

GoranF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

GoranF1
GoranF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Honda's basic layout of its 2016 engine – including the revised turbo and compressor size – have now been set, and the next two weeks will be essential for back-to-back testing of new parts and ideas.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/analy ... up-675142/
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

GoranF1
GoranF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

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dren
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Facts Only wrote:Let me just make one point, if you have 100 engineers, 75 of them working on the "main" project and then the best 25 "legends" working on a "rogue" project that you end up using all you have done is waste the time and work of 75 engineers.

You need a strong leader who gives a definitive unified direction for everyone to be working on together to achieve the best final outcome.

There are a lot of people (non-engineers I assume) on this forum who think that developing loads of different solutions is the best way forward. Theres an old saying for that "if you throw enough --- at the wall something will stick"
While I agree with you, I don't think that's how Honda looks at it. They have historically used racing as a training ground for their young engineers. You may look at the end product as a waste of internal resources (with the goal of F1, it is), but Honda may look at it as great engineering training. Honda has a core business to run aside from its on again off again F1 flirtation. It seems like Honda is having a rethink of their philosophy due to the massive drudging they have received in the media. Being competitive in F1 is completely different than it was in the 80s. They -should- have known this with their last V8 attempts 10 years ago you'd think...
Honda!

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Honda Power Unit

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GoranF1 wrote:That is one sick engine....

https://twitter.com/LaCasaDeAlonso/stat ... 7617484801

What is that sound?
It started off throttle and continued as alonso picked up pace.

Anyhow, the news from Honda is not good and i think it shows how politics has a way of misdirecting a whole project.
Having the right leadership is very crucial. If you have a project leader/manager that is close minded you will have a lot of problems along the way and i say this looking on what Honda has done from 2015. They refused to listen to outsiders and they were hell bent on pursuing some pipe dream "size zero" philosophy in a blind and very vein manner.
I hope there is levelheadedness and logic applied to how they run things now. The engineers are tools, and their energies need to directed in the right fashion. No matter how good they are, if they are asked to design and develop rubbish, it will just be a well engineered piece of rubbish at the end of the day (not to say the Honda PU project is rubbish, but just using an extreme).
So hopefully Honda gets things back on track with this new for 2016 engine. And it would make 2017 even more optimistic if they just scrap size zero alltogether and make a kick ass brute of a PU.
Last edited by ringo on 23 Feb 2016, 16:04, edited 2 times in total.
For Sure!!

dr_cooke
dr_cooke
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Joined: 12 Mar 2008, 14:43

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Wazari San, would it be possible that what prompted this decission was Arai San resignation? I mean, it seems difficult to understand that Honda decides to make this shuffle no, and not at the end of last seqson, unless Arai himslef has decided to step out once his developement route has been discarded (if it has been discarded)

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dren
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Honda Power Unit

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dr_cooke wrote:Wazari San, would it be possible that what prompted this decission was Arai San resignation? I mean, it seems difficult to understand that Honda decides to make this shuffle no, and not at the end of last seqson, unless Arai himslef has decided to step out once his developement route has been discarded (if it has been discarded)
It's the time of year internal restructuring takes place at Honda. I'd take a guess that Arai knew about this already, but who knows.
Honda!

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Honda Power Unit

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dren wrote:
Facts Only wrote:Let me just make one point, if you have 100 engineers, 75 of them working on the "main" project and then the best 25 "legends" working on a "rogue" project that you end up using all you have done is waste the time and work of 75 engineers.

You need a strong leader who gives a definitive unified direction for everyone to be working on together to achieve the best final outcome.

There are a lot of people (non-engineers I assume) on this forum who think that developing loads of different solutions is the best way forward. Theres an old saying for that "if you throw enough --- at the wall something will stick"
While I agree with you, I don't think that's how Honda looks at it. They have historically used racing as a training ground for their young engineers. You may look at the end product as a waste of internal resources (with the goal of F1, it is), but Honda may look at it as great engineering training. Honda has a core business to run aside from its on again off again F1 flirtation. It seems like Honda is having a rethink of their philosophy due to the massive drudging they have received in the media. Being competitive in F1 is completely different than it was in the 80s. They -should- have known this with their last V8 attempts 10 years ago you'd think...
Ron Denis didn't sign up to play Mr. Rogers or Big Bird on Sesame Street to teach a bunch of padawans. Honda should do that on their own time.

Honda should know that Mclaren are here to win championships, not play around. As for training young Honda engineers in in a highly competitive and fast paced Formula 1....
Image
For Sure!!

f1rules
f1rules
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Joined: 11 Jan 2004, 15:34
Location: Denmark

Re: Honda Power Unit

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so last year the PU was crap but not that crap according to most sources, incl newey i think even mentioned their pu was decent, suddenly its 100ps down, i really hope not

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dren
226
Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Honda Power Unit

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ringo wrote:Ron Denis didn't sign up to play Mr. Rogers or Big Bird on Sesame Street to teach a bunch of padawans. Honda should do that on their own time.

Honda should know that Mclaren are here to win championships, not play around. As for training young Honda engineers in in a highly competitive and fast paced Formula 1....
http://colsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... notime.jpg
I'm only going by what Honda has said about their F1 involvement ever since I have been following F1; but of course that's probably all lies? I'd also make a wager that not every one of those engineers is a 5 year old in a bib.

Honda has historically done things differently. They may step on it from time to time but they eventually get it right.

So far, it seems like the PU is heading in the right direction.
Honda!

hemichromis
hemichromis
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Joined: 17 Nov 2015, 15:00

Re: Honda Power Unit

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dr_cooke wrote:Wazari San, would it be possible that what prompted this decission was Arai San resignation? I mean, it seems difficult to understand that Honda decides to make this shuffle no, and not at the end of last seqson, unless Arai himslef has decided to step out once his developement route has been discarded (if it has been discarded)
In Honda the retirement age is 60, Arai becomes 60 mid-season this year. The decision was made to move him to a different role now so Honda F1 can adapt with his assistance before he retires.

As far as i can see it has nothing to do with the first test or last year it is purely to do with Honda retirement policy.

taperoo2k
taperoo2k
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Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 17:33

Re: Honda Power Unit

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ringo wrote:
GoranF1 wrote:That is one sick engine....

https://twitter.com/LaCasaDeAlonso/stat ... 7617484801

What is that sound?
It started off throttle and continued as alonso picked up pace.
Sounds like the usual rough burbling of the Honda PU but more pronounced than before. Maybe they are turning the wick up ? Or trying a different fuel mixture and new lubricants ?
Anyhow, the news from Honda is not good and i think it shows how politics has a way of misdirecting a whole project.
Having the right leadership is very crucial. If you have a project leader/manager that is close minded you will have a lot of problems along the way and i say this looking on what Honda has done from 2015. They refused to listen to outsiders and they were hell bent on pursuing some pipe dream "size zero" philosophy in a blind and very vein manner.
I hope there is levelheadedness and logic applied to how they run things now. The engineers are tools, and their energies need to directed in the right fashion. No matter how good they are, if they are asked to design and develop rubbish, it will just be a well engineered piece of rubbish at the end of the day (not to say the Honda PU project is rubbish, but just using an extreme).
I think it boils down to Arai and others being stubborn over the design direction, while another group of Honda Engineers saw what the problems were and decided to go in a different direction and fix them. Chaos would have been Honda keeping the things as they were and expecting a different result and not allowing the other engineers to have a crack at solving the issues. I don't see that as Honda being weak allowing another team to go off on their own, in fact it's pragmatic and keeps everything in house.

I'm sure the new generation of Honda engineers have learned a lot in the last year and that will be a good thing going forward with the PU project.
So hopefully Honda gets things back on track with this new for 2016 engine. And it would make 2017 even more optimistic if they just scrap size zero alltogether and make a kick ass brute of a PU.
It sounds like Honda is on track engineering wise, it might mean the first few races won't be brilliant as they bring upgrades to the PU but they do appear to be on top of the reliability issues. It's just a matter of finding performance with 2017 in mind. They won't scrap the size zero design unless they come up with a radically different design that leap frogs them to the front. And that does not happen very often in F1/engineering.


People just have to patient with Honda, they have a design path and are for better or worse sticking to it. All be it with tweaks.

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Thunder
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Joined: 06 Feb 2013, 09:50
Location: Germany

Re: Honda Power Unit

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On the Topic of young Engineers at Honda:

There was an Interview a few weeks ago where Arai said about half their Team has no F1 experience.

Edit: Here it is.
http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Compani ... ear?page=1
Though we don't disclose the number of people involved in our F1 team, about half of them are new to the field.
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