Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

[DiogoBrand]

Fans hill help creating more downforce which is basically vertical pressure on the contact patches. You still need rubber able to cope with that pressure in order to convert that downforce into cornering speed.
IMO the secret will be in tyre width, since there's a limit of pressure the rubber can withstand, you can lower that pressure by increasing the area on which the force is distributed.
As for technologies banned in F1 that will be used on the car, my guess is active suspension rather than fans. For some reason I don't think "blowing stuff from the road on whoever comes behind you" as a very marketable concept.

You blow the air behind you when you have a race car because you can, doesn't mean it's the only place to blow air.

You can also slow the air down.

Active suspension is a given on hyper and supercars and becoming standard on most luxury cars. You're suggesting they are hinging F1 level performance on that? I dont think so. I do agree with you the tires will probably be something new.

There are no wings on the launch poster sketches. Historically speaking sketches like that reference production intent. Again, I'd imagine this project is well into development and beyond concept phase. The timeline suggests this - cars take years.

No wings means fans. If you only allowed the fans to run when the GPS recognized a race track you could handle debris...

Every hypercar sold has track modes, Bugatti has a special key for top speed, how is this simple multi-mode principal going over so many peoples heads? It's VERY fast if you want to goto the grocery store. It's UN-GODLY fast if you put it in track mode.

SR71

What "no wings on the concept images" probably means is "active wings". Being able to have wings that generate a huge amount of downforce when cornering and no drag when accelerating will be a great advantage in comparison with F1, as well as venturi tunnels, and if I'm not mistaken active aero can also be used on the floor, AFAIK the LaFerrari uses it.
I'm not sure how much, but being able to cover the wheels also has a large effect on drag. If I'm not mistaken, F1 and road cars have an average drag coeff of around 1.0 and 0.3, respectively.

[NoDivergence]

The wiper is the least of their worries. I did a few calcs in another discussion about this today...

Try finding tyres which will support a 1000+kg car giving around 1000+kg of downforce while cornering at 3G and topping out at 300+km/h while being road homologated, treaded and somewhat durable and somewhat cost effective.

In my opinion it's not possible within the constraints of a production car programme. You basically need a tyre as grippy as an F1 tyre but as strong as a truck tyre.

The fact that it has been cited as a 2 seater luxury car means it will never hit any decent weight target so the tyre requirements are going to be simply mental.

Some type of R compound could do it. A050 stand up to 7000+ lb of downforce while being slightly treaded. 2.5+ G of lateral acceleration

[SR71]

Fans hill help creating more downforce which is basically vertical pressure on the contact patches. You still need rubber able to cope with that pressure in order to convert that downforce into cornering speed.
IMO the secret will be in tyre width, since there's a limit of pressure the rubber can withstand, you can lower that pressure by increasing the area on which the force is distributed.
As for technologies banned in F1 that will be used on the car, my guess is active suspension rather than fans. For some reason I don't think "blowing stuff from the road on whoever comes behind you" as a very marketable concept.

You blow the air behind you when you have a race car because you can, doesn't mean it's the only place to blow air.

You can also slow the air down.

Active suspension is a given on hyper and supercars and becoming standard on most luxury cars. You're suggesting they are hinging F1 level performance on that? I dont think so. I do agree with you the tires will probably be something new.

There are no wings on the launch poster sketches. Historically speaking sketches like that reference production intent. Again, I'd imagine this project is well into development and beyond concept phase. The timeline suggests this - cars take years.

No wings means fans. If you only allowed the fans to run when the GPS recognized a race track you could handle debris...

Every hypercar sold has track modes, Bugatti has a special key for top speed, how is this simple multi-mode principal going over so many peoples heads? It's VERY fast if you want to goto the grocery store. It's UN-GODLY fast if you put it in track mode.

SR71

What "no wings on the concept images" probably means is "active wings". Being able to have wings that generate a huge amount of downforce when cornering and no drag when accelerating will be a great advantage in comparison with F1, as well as venturi tunnels, and if I'm not mistaken active aero can also be used on the floor, AFAIK the LaFerrari uses it.
I'm not sure how much, but being able to cover the wheels also has a large effect on drag. If I'm not mistaken, F1 and road cars have an average drag coeff of around 1.0 and 0.3, respectively.

Ok, you're bet is no fans and my bet is fans.

Fans ARE active aero btw. I suspect fans won't be the only active solution they use. like you stated, active aero exists on many production cars. RB are suggesting numbers that go beyond solutions that exist. How close is the la Ferrari (your example) to an F1 car. Not very close.

Let that guide you on much more room for development those solutions provide.

SR71

[Tim.Wright]

Some type of R compound could do it. A050 stand up to 7000+ lb of downforce while being slightly treaded. 2.5+ G of lateral acceleration

I doubt those Yokohamas would last 5 minutes carrying 1000+kg around a track at F1 speeds. Look at the durability problems Pirelli had a few years back with only 700kgs to support.

Apart from that, 7000+lb of downforce I find a bit hard to believe.

Actually, 2.5G+ is pretty hard to believe too. I imagine these are numbers coming from the time attack brigade?

[Just_a_fan]

I foresee problems with this project.

Firstly, and with due respect, Aston Martin don't have much in the way of technical expertise. They loan engines and software from Mercedes and rumours are surfacing that even switchgear from higher end Mercs will be making an appearance in a DB11 near you.

The Mercedes link is only very recent. Prior to that they had developed their own engines and other items. Like most small scale manufacturers they buy in things when it suits or when economies of scale require it. Heck, most car premium car manufacturers use ZF gearboxes, for example, including big ones like BMW.

[autogyro]

I have been less than impressed by 'development' for decades.
Aston Martin is just as capable of building either top road or F1 power units as any large company.
They simply have to have the right facilities and buy in the experts.
Both road and F1 are totally controlled by regulation.
In F1 I am sure all the others know what it is that makes the Merc unit superior, it is the regulations that prevent them making the changes needed to come up to speed.
It was slightly different with the Red Bull dominance earlier, Adrian's superior aero was countered by FIA changes in the regulations, the engine manufacturers now control the power units so it takes much longer to force change.
Spec formulas are always like that unlike proper development formula.

It is not a problem to build a hyper car faster than an F1 car, making it legal and driver capable is the problem
In any case what is 'faster' an F1 car can be configured and geared for practically any top speed or cornering capability.
It remains all a matter of compromise.
Soon electric hyper cars will be unbeatable anyway.

[WaikeCU]

I could see this becoming reality:



If you think again, this could be road legal. The wheels are already covered. A few other changes regarding road safety and this is good to go. Road safety will be the only boundary for Newey to create the hyper-car. No regulations on size, aerodynamics, etc. I still remember the concept above was created if there's no boundaries at all, how Newey's ultimate car would look like.

Would be cool if they can draw the line further in entering LMP1 with a RB-AM Newey designed masterpiece.

[Fulcrum]

Lot's of negativity here.

I understand the goal sounds implausible, but shoot for the moon, maybe only reach the stratosphere. That would still be some achievement.

Forget the talk of F1-beating speeds. Considering so many people are offering commentary on what isn't possible, actually more a statement on what isn't probable, perhaps those same people could provide input on what might feasibly be achieved?

F1 ~ 1:30
LMP1 ~ 1:40
LMP2 ~ 1:50
GT Cars ~ 2:00

[Big Mangalhit]

I for one, think this is possible. It is Newey we are talking about and an unrestricted Newey. I think the car will be made with movable aero, active (very clever) suspension, fans (maybe with a sparse filter for debris) and a lot more we haven't even think to do. For all we know this car could have 6 wheels and 2 turning axles. Having a drastic change between corners and straights. Imagine not only in terms of changing drag/DF but maybe dropping an extra pair of wheels on corners.

[bill shoe]

Don't understand the world's consistent obsession with creating and possessing cars that are capable of being very quick and street-legal (or at least street-able). Very quick means there is no public road on earth, straight or curvy, where you could drive the car at its limit without clearly endangering others.

A F1-quick street car is not good or bad, it's just irrelevant. I know really fast sporting cars such as F1 ultimately do not exist for any functional purpose outside the sport, but at least within the context of the sport they use their speed to the fullest. Any F1-quick street car will never have a relevant context in which to operate. If you drive it on the track it will simply be an awkward and inefficient way to go that fast compared to an equivalent track car that's not street legal.

[SR71]

Don't understand the world's consistent obsession with creating and possessing cars that are capable of being very quick and street-legal (or at least street-able). Very quick means there is no public road on earth, straight or curvy, where you could drive the car at its limit without clearly endangering others.

A F1-quick street car is not good or bad, it's just irrelevant. I know really fast sporting cars such as F1 ultimately do not exist for any functional purpose outside the sport, but at least within the context of the sport they use their speed to the fullest. Any F1-quick street car will never have a relevant context in which to operate. If you drive it on the track it will simply be an awkward and inefficient way to go that fast compared to an equivalent track car that's not street legal.

Really? very tired, old, and predictable negative comment. Please apply that thinking towards F1 in general and then question why you're reading this forum.

3 pages on this thread so far, 80% negative and naysayers. Reminds me of the two types of engineers in this world, ones that say no and ones that say yes.

Clearly red bull has the latter.

Shouldn't red bull be applauded for taking a step towards being a manufacture, putting there money where their mouth is? For taking the fight to Ferrari and Mclaren for their customers money?

If Ferrari/merc/Mac said they were going to make a car with these stats I know this thread would expose itself in 1 minute for its anti-red bull bias...

[Tim.Wright]

Actually, I prefer putting my support behind the laws of physics rather than any particular team.

I actually think the car will be quite revolutionary and I quite look forward to it.

I'm just calling BS on Andy's claims they can make a styled, luxury 2 seater road car which can lap faster than an F1 car.

[FoxHound]

I foresee problems with this project.

Firstly, and with due respect, Aston Martin don't have much in the way of technical expertise. They loan engines and software from Mercedes and rumours are surfacing that even switchgear from higher end Mercs will be making an appearance in a DB11 near you.

The Mercedes link is only very recent. Prior to that they had developed their own engines and other items. Like most small scale manufacturers they buy in things when it suits or when economies of scale require it. Heck, most car premium car manufacturers use ZF gearboxes, for example, including big ones like BMW.

Like I said, with due respect.

The engines Aston Martin "made" were archaic by modern standards.
Even then alot of that was developed on Ford money a couple of decades ago.

Simply, Aston Martin, a prestigious brand of some pedigree took the decision they could not justify the development spend for their bread-and-butter models engine. Thereby acquiring Mercedes expertise to power their cars.
And use complete electronics systems. Extending to parts of the interior decor.

This tells you precisely where AM are at present.

One could argue that this is a white elephant they could well do without.

[basti313]

Actually, I prefer putting my support behind the laws of physics rather than any particular team.

I actually think the car will be quite revolutionary and I quite look forward to it.

I'm just calling BS on Andy's claims they can make a styled, luxury 2 seater road car which can lap faster than an F1 car.

This is absolutely true.
The car that comes closest to what Aston wants to build is the Ferrari FXX-K and it is ~15% slower than a 2004F1 car round Fiorano. And this car costs 3M and is not street legal.

[SectorOne]

I think we should just appreciate the fact that we get to see Adrian Newey with virtually no strings attached.
Who knows what masterpiece that egg-shaped head of his can envision.

I´m more excited to see his creation then what 11 Formula 1 teams will come up with in 2017.