Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

[Just_a_fan]

I foresee problems with this project.

Firstly, and with due respect, Aston Martin don't have much in the way of technical expertise. They loan engines and software from Mercedes and rumours are surfacing that even switchgear from higher end Mercs will be making an appearance in a DB11 near you.

The Mercedes link is only very recent. Prior to that they had developed their own engines and other items. Like most small scale manufacturers they buy in things when it suits or when economies of scale require it. Heck, most car premium car manufacturers use ZF gearboxes, for example, including big ones like BMW.

Like I said, with due respect.

The engines Aston Martin "made" were archaic by modern standards.
Even then alot of that was developed on Ford money a couple of decades ago.

Really? 20 years eh? These aren't American push rods you know. They're modern, fully emissions-compliant high performance engines.

Simply, Aston Martin, a prestigious brand of some pedigree took the decision they could not justify the development spend for their bread-and-butter models engine. Thereby acquiring Mercedes expertise to power their cars.
And use complete electronics systems. Extending to parts of the interior decor.

This tells you precisely where AM are at present.

You are aware that Daimler has a 5% stake in AM, aren't you? AM are going to use AMG to build some engines. Others are built in the Ford-owned Cologne engine factory and have been for about ten years. The current engines started out as Jaguar units but were redesigned by AM. And that's totally redesigned - block, heads, pistons, crank etc. Aston use an Austrian company, Magna Steyr to build the four door Rapide. Magna build cars for BMW too - the X3 and part of the Mini range. Land Rover have contracted them to build cars too. Land Rover already use Magna's transfer boxes in their 4x4s. The point is that very few companies "do it all" these days.

Remember that Aston Martin is tiny - about 1200 people are employed by AM.

One could argue that this is a white elephant they could well do without.

Now on this we agree wholeheartedly.

[FoxHound]

@JAF

Yet tiny operations like Koenigsegg can build everything bespoke and in-house?
Right down to tiny unique tools, screws and rivets.

I'm not going to sit here and denigrate a great name like Aston Martin to make a point.
But the reality is that Aston Martins main competitors (Ferrari, Porsche), do it all alone.

25 years ago Ferrari were of similar stature and sales to AM. Today, it's incomparable.

Also whilst looking up some info, I find that Aston Martin have a 300 million bond over 7 years.
This for a company who's revenues have declined 10% and with 300 job losses.
After tax, the company barely makes a profit. Pre tax 2 million... after tax... that could easily be a loss.

Make no mistake, the reason Aston Martin are using Merc engines and parts is simply because they can't afford to do either themselves.

Not because Magna Steyr can take the heat of main production lines due to capacity or tooling issues. Mercedes outsource production of their A class to help on stressed production lines and meet demand.

Your point would be far more valid if you made the comparison regarding that very same car using a Renault diesel engine. Which is exactly why I don't think the car is a Merc. It simply isn't.

[mrluke]

How much of this project is just RBR making a point that F1 is too slow?

"Look guys we can build a road car for joe public that is quicker than F1"

[SR71]

How much of this project is just RBR making a point that F1 is too slow?

"Look guys we can build a road car for joe public that is quicker than F1"

Hopefully all of it.

Auto industry is ripe for disruption - a company like red bull or Apple can turn it upside down.

[autogyro]

Fi design is primarily aero.
Adrian is top of this field.
I don't suppose he gives a damn what power unit is used.
In F1 he simply fitted what the engine manufacturer and the FIA told him to.
With modern ICE to choose from for his road car idea he has all the technology done and done over again from the 20th century with perhaps a very small amount of 21st century.
For the gearbox pure 19th century concepts.
The design will be 90 percent computer generated so art does not come into it.
Tell me, what is the point?

[Just_a_fan]

@JAF

Yet tiny operations like Koenigsegg can build everything bespoke and in-house?
Right down to tiny unique tools, screws and rivets.

They don't. They have external suppliers producing stuff for them.

They also sell their cars for $1m a pop. They hand make bespoke limited run cars. Aston Martin are in the position where they don't truly mass produce and they don't make truly bespoke.

Porsche made about 165,000 cars last year, Aston Martin about 5000. That's the reality of their position.

Ferrari are a special case. No company this side of Apple has their marketability.

Aston Martin are in a horrible position really. I hate that they are doing this with RedBull. One thing is certain, Aston Martin will get a lot less from the episode than RedBull will. Sad really.

[SR71]

@JAF

Yet tiny operations like Koenigsegg can build everything bespoke and in-house?
Right down to tiny unique tools, screws and rivets.

They don't. They have external suppliers producing stuff for them.

They also sell their cars for $1m a pop. They hand make bespoke limited run cars. Aston Martin are in the position where they don't truly mass produce and they don't make truly bespoke.

Porsche made about 165,000 cars last year, Aston Martin about 5000. That's the reality of their position.

Ferrari are a special case. No company this side of Apple has their marketability.

Aston Martin are in a horrible position really. I hate that they are doing this with RedBull. One thing is certain, Aston Martin will get a lot less from the episode than RedBull will. Sad really.

Red Bull does everything to perfection - they are one of the best technology companies in the world (inside and outside of F1) and have shown their worth in F1 more so than Ferrari/Mclaren has in the last 10 years - they even have the titles to prove it

Aston or any company in that position should be more than welcoming to work with RB and I'd imagine the people at aston are pretty effin excited about this special project. Honda were pretty desperate for access to Red Bull Technology last year - they even risked upsetting their own partner mclaren to have conversations with RB. Why do you think that is?

This is a pretty clear win/win...

[FoxHound]

You do Koenigsegg a grave injustice JAF.

They develop their own engines, electronic systems and sub systems, Chassis and transmission, and interiors. They have minimal contact with any external suppliers and do pretty much everything in house.
The only item not made completely in house is the engine block which is cast in the UK then shipped to Sweden for assembly. Even then this is a temporary solution due to insufficientspace at their hangar factory, and will be rectified in due course.
Not bad for an operation with 100 employees of which 25 are the engineering department!
Redonkulous really.

It's unnecessarily independent to the point of obsession.

But let's forgo the semantic satiation for a moment by agreeing Aston Martin are in dire straights.
I fully agree that this benefits Red Bull far more than AM. My concern for them is to what level of financial exposure will they be drawn.
It does sound like they are balls deep here, rather than just a badging exercise.
And this is disconcerting for any fan of the brand.

My overriding impression however, is that AM are being used as Red Bull's 'red carpet' into becoming a fully fledged manufacturer. It makes sense for Red Bull, zero sense for AM ushering in a potential new competitor and taking the risk in their precarious position.

Completely unnecessary.

[SR71]

You do Koenigsegg a grave injustice JAF.

They develop their own engines, electronic systems and sub systems, Chassis and transmission, and interiors. They have minimal contact with any external suppliers and do pretty much everything in house.
The only item not made completely in house is the engine block which is cast in the UK then shipped to Sweden for assembly. Even then this is a temporary solution due to insufficientspace at their hangar factory, and will be rectified in due course.
Not bad for an operation with 100 employees of which 25 are the engineering department!
Redonkulous really.

It's unnecessarily independent to the point of obsession.

But let's forgo the semantic satiation for a moment by agreeing Aston Martin are in dire straights.
I fully agree that this benefits Red Bull far more than AM. My concern for them is to what level of financial exposure will they be drawn.
It does sound like they are balls deep here, rather than just a badging exercise.
And this is disconcerting for any fan of the brand.

My overriding impression however, is that AM are being used as Red Bull's 'red carpet' into becoming a fully fledged manufacturer. It makes sense for Red Bull, zero sense for AM ushering in a potential new competitor and taking the risk in their precarious position.

Completely unnecessary.

Being that you've personally read the contracts and understand the future road-map for the two companies and this partnership, could you tell us more?

Thanks,
SR71

[FoxHound]

SR71,

This here be a forum, whereby we chuck 2 cents till it bleeds.
I'm not purporting my opinion as fact, merely just my tuppence.

If ya don't dig, I don't really mind.
I admire your optimism too, I just don't share it though man(for reasons I've delved into plenty).

[DiogoBrand]

How much of this project is just RBR making a point that F1 is too slow?

"Look guys we can build a road car for joe public that is quicker than F1"

Really good point. Since Red Bull is one of the main supporters of any big rule change that could put them back on winning roads in F1, this is just their way of "pushing" F1 into allowing faster cars, the very same strategy used by Ecclestone when raising the possibility of a cheap engine, as a way to press manufacturers for lower PU prices.
If this goes beyond political crap and into an actual project, we'll have to wait and see.

[SR71]

SR71,

This here be a forum, whereby we chuck 2 cents till it bleeds.
I'm not purporting my opinion as fact, merely just my tuppence.

If ya don't dig, I don't really mind.
I admire your optimism too, I just don't share it though man(for reasons I've delved into plenty).

Roger that.

"My overriding impression however"

care to elaborate?

[Just_a_fan]

Foxhound, read Koenigsegg's web site. They actually state that they use external suppliers for various things. But again, they are building extremely limited numbers of bespoke, hand built cars that cost a million, literally. Likewise Pagani. If they tried to build 5000 cars a year selling at 50-70 grand then they would struggle too because the numbers would require using external suppliers of items such as gearboxes. BMW do it and they're a very big player.

I still think AM have got in to bed with the devil. RedBull will take any credit for themselves and lavish any blame on AM. Look at the recent relationship with Renault.

[graham.reeds]

Keonigsegg started off with a Ford 4.7 twin supercharged engine. Overtime they developed it until it is barely recognisable.

Pagani could make and sell more cars but Mercedes don't want to keep building very limited numbers of the 7.3l engines (which first appeared in the 1998 CLK supersport). But do they need to make more than 50 cars per year when they are selling at 1 million per pop and they have a full order book?

Back to the original point. AM are the overall winners. Adrian Newey is known to non-F1 people - one of the few people who have transcended the sport. Where I work they are all football mad and they know of Adrian Newey. He is recognised as being at the top of his game for the past 25 years. RB wins as it gives AN his diversion he so desperately craves. This is supposition but AN seems to be one of those people who never truly switches off and never takes time off. A year doing other things enables RB to have a rejuvenated AN come back.

The quality of the car will depend on the design brief. What constraints will be placed? Will he be constrained to a front engine car? Does it need back seats?

Going off piste: I've been hoping to see a RB WEC LMP1 car for a while. AM tried it a few years ago but failed miserably. This partnership could see AM reevaluate it especially if this current deal is a success. Stick a rebadged Merc F1 engine in it and the design/build could be done via RB.

[basti313]

I think we should just appreciate the fact that we get to see Adrian Newey with virtually no strings attached.
Who knows what masterpiece that egg-shaped head of his can envision.

I´m more excited to see his creation then what 11 Formula 1 teams will come up with in 2017.

That is true. But there will be no Adrian Newey with no strings attached. They want to build a road legal two seater car, that means you have A LOT of strings attached.
The basic drawback will be the pedestrian safety, which gives you rules on the minimal radius of the front parts. This kills all fantasy about a Newey Supercar like he designed for the computer game or the car McLaren showed recently.