Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

[SR71]

This thread has contained statements that AM aren't even capable of delivering a car on par with a P1/918/La Ferrari.

I think now we have a background that demonstrates this isnt true and highlights the fact that AM are at the sharp end of the hypercar producers. This gives strong credibility to their ability in partnership with a company like Red Bull to deliver even more performance.

Okay mods, this is a personal attack. I'll understand if you delete this.

SR71, people in this thread kept saying that delivering an F1 (Formula One, not McLaren F1) beating beating road car is practically impossible. You kept on spouting nonsense about how bolting on active aero, active suspension, ground effects and all other banned F1 tech will make that possible, because Adrian Newey is a god.

It's OK that you are too blind to question your god, the problem is that you continuously talk down to the other forum posters, you misquote your sources and worst of all you accuse the forum members of making statements they never made.

At worst, you are a jerk because you are harassing people. At best, you need to go back to school to work on your reading comprehension. If you read your own damn source like, you will find that AM is replacing the diffuser on their road going version, so it DOES NOT handle 1300kg of downforce on street tyres.

I'm thinking the only reason people still give him some attention is because they, like myself as car and engineering enthusiast, want to be proven wrong when they say a road going car that laps faster than F1 is not doable.
But there comes a point when we have to admit that if we are to be proven wrong, it's not going to be by a guy that simply assumes something because he thinks Adrian Newey turns everything to gold, and then there's no point in giving him any attention anymore. At least that's what I did.

Do you know someone more qualified to achieve the goals set out in this project other than Adrian Newey? You're constant reference to him as a God makes you sound a little insecure.

I think we can all agree he's the most capable person on the planet with regards to the challenge.

What you also fail to acknowledge is that my enthusiasm for this project also comes from Red Bulls involvement, not just AN. Red bull technologies is and red bull in general are now one of the top technology companies in the world. RB's simulation capabilities are very advanced and are just the thing needed for this type of project. Aston has the strongest partner possible.

I suppose if I was an incapable engineer I would refer to newey as a god, or at least be massively insecure about my lack of talent. But I'm just a fan of top minds and tough production challenges which is why this project is exciting to me.

[DiogoBrand]

Yes yes, we get it, you're excited because Newey is a god and Red Bull is composed of physics wizards which can make a car achieve the impossible, call me back when your enthusiasm is backed by data, not blind belief.
And I really don't get how anything I've said indicates insecurity, but since you see what you want from everything you read I won't question that.

[Nickel]

IDK but I see a bunch of nay-sayers too, people who hold f1 on such a pedestal that it would be unthinkable to beat an f1 lap time with a road car. Frankly I'm surprised this thread has legs as it's all speculation.

[SR71]

Yes yes, we get it, you're excited because Newey is a god and Red Bull is composed of physics wizards which can make a car achieve the impossible, call me back when your enthusiasm is backed by data, not blind belief.
And I really don't get how anything I've said indicates insecurity, but since you see what you want from everything you read I won't question that.

Calling Dr. Frued....

Again, do you have proof that this is impossible? Or are you just making things up since you see what you want?

[SR71]

IDK but I see a bunch of nay-sayers too, people who hold f1 on such a pedestal that it would be unthinkable to beat an f1 lap time with a road car. Frankly I'm surprised this thread has legs as it's all speculation.

Exactly.

[FoxHound]

Yes yes, we get it, you're excited because Newey is a god and Red Bull is composed of physics wizards which can make a car achieve the impossible, call me back when your enthusiasm is backed by data, not blind belief.
And I really don't get how anything I've said indicates insecurity, but since you see what you want from everything you read I won't question that.

He doesn't get it.
By now you should realise that any objection to AM's claims will be met with largely unfounded derision.
Leave him wallow in his "certainty".

[SR71]

Yes yes, we get it, you're excited because Newey is a god and Red Bull is composed of physics wizards which can make a car achieve the impossible, call me back when your enthusiasm is backed by data, not blind belief.
And I really don't get how anything I've said indicates insecurity, but since you see what you want from everything you read I won't question that.

He doesn't get it.
By now you should realise that any objection to AM's claims will be met with largely unfounded derision.
Leave him wallow in his "certainty".

If AM/RB actually create this car, what would that say about you? Clueless at best?

[DiogoBrand]

Of course it's not impossible, just invest billions, use all the exotic materials known to manking and some yet unknown, make it so it will barely pass all road safety and all other regulations, strap in every possible technology together with super sticky tyres and voila!
Just to start: everyone has already assumed that if it will be done, it won't be on road tyres, which for a lot of people already kills the claim, but let's ignore that.
A 2016 Formula One car is speculated to have around 900BHP and is mandated to have a minimum weight of 700Kg including driver minus fuel. Their Poweir/Weight ratios are well over 1,0; their downforce to weight ratios at 250K/h is around 2,0.
Now let's take road cars:
Taking the Atom V8 as an example of car that's barely legal safety wise, I mean, they've used plenty of loopholes to make that car able to go on the road, weighs at less than 600Kg, but has a power to weight of 0.9.
The Koeniggsegg One:1 has, as the name says, a power to weight of 1,0; but weighs at 1300+ kg, which is nowhere near enough for F1 laps.
If we take the Top Gear Test Track times, a Ferrari FXX has done a 1.11 if I'm not mistaken, a Zonda R has done a 1.07, and those cars are nowhere near legal, the best legal car was the Huayra at 1.13. For comparison, the 2005 Renault F1 did a 0.59, so even the Zonda R is more than 10% off, and 10% in F1 numbers is an impossibly high mountain to climb.
Since the P1, which is one of the new hyper hybrids, hasn't done a lap around the Top Gear TT, we can compare it to the Zonda R around the Nordschleife. The Zonda is reported to having achieved a 6.30, while the P1 has a "below 7min" time, not too much below, we can tell, since the 918 done a 6.57. If we apply those percentages to the Top Gear TT it gives a 1:11 lap time, still 20% below the Renault R25.

If F1 is considered the pinnacle of motorsport, and is still the fastest category around a circuit, it's for a reason.
When you say you can make a road car go faster than F1, while keeping costs under US$1M you should have something to back that up besides your company name, and as I said, if I am to be proven wrong, and I wish I am, it's not gonna be by you.
And engineering isn't about achieving the impossible. If there is one thing an engineer has never made is achieve something impossible, and achnowleging something might be impossible, a lot of times isn't lack of competence, is just maturity.

[SR71]

Of course it's not impossible, just invest billions, use all the exotic materials known to manking and some yet unknown, make it so it will barely pass all road safety and all other regulations, strap in every possible technology together with super sticky tyres and voila!
Just to start: everyone has already assumed that if it will be done, it won't be on road tyres, which for a lot of people already kills the claim, but let's ignore that.
A 2016 Formula One car is speculated to have around 900BHP and is mandated to have a minimum weight of 700Kg including driver minus fuel. Their Poweir/Weight ratios are well over 1,0; their downforce to weight ratios at 250K/h is around 2,0.
Now let's take road cars:
Taking the Atom V8 as an example of car that's barely legal safety wise, I mean, they've used plenty of loopholes to make that car able to go on the road, weighs at less than 600Kg, but has a power to weight of 0.9.
The Koeniggsegg One:1 has, as the name says, a power to weight of 1,0; but weighs at 1300+ kg, which is nowhere near enough for F1 laps.
If we take the Top Gear Test Track times, a Ferrari FXX has done a 1.11 if I'm not mistaken, a Zonda R has done a 1.07, and those cars are nowhere near legal, the best legal car was the Huayra at 1.13. For comparison, the 2005 Renault F1 did a 0.59, so even the Zonda R is more than 10% off, and 10% in F1 numbers is an impossibly high mountain to climb.
Since the P1, which is one of the new hyper hybrids, hasn't done a lap around the Top Gear TT, we can compare it to the Zonda R around the Nordschleife. The Zonda is reported to having achieved a 6.30, while the P1 has a "below 7min" time, not too much below, we can tell, since the 918 done a 6.57. If we apply those percentages to the Top Gear TT it gives a 1:11 lap time, still 20% below the Renault R25.

If F1 is considered the pinnacle of motorsport, and is still the fastest category around a circuit, it's for a reason.
When you say you can make a road car go faster than F1, while keeping costs under US$1M you should have something to back that up besides your company name, and as I said, if I am to be proven wrong, and I wish I am, it's not gonna be by you.
And engineering isn't about achieving the impossible. If there is one thing an engineer has never made is achieve something impossible, and achnowleging something might be impossible, a lot of times isn't lack of competence, is just maturity.

You keep talking about cars that had different objectives as if they are relevant.

It's like saying we can't Goto the moon because we just learned how to fly.

Funny how those things happened within 50 yrs of eachother.

AM/RB are trying something never attempted before in the automotive industry. It's really unfair to say because so and so were only capable of this, then you are limited by thier achievements.

I can promise you the original design brief of ZERO hyper cars available on the market was to beat an F1 car.

the fact you remain inside this box automatically shows your misunderstanding of the basic challenge.

This will be something new, not an evolution. If you cannot see that baked into the fundamental problem then I completely understand your inability to see the possible solutions.

Like I've said, two types of engineers in the world. Cans and cannots, RB doesn't hire cannots.

[DiogoBrand]

Basically all cars I mentioned share one very important thing with AM's project: they all follow the laws of physics.

Let me just get one thing straight:
I have nothing against your belief that this project is possible, in fact I said time and time again that the desire of me and every other "naysayer", as you like to call, is to be proven wrong.
The simple fact is, this is a technical forum, and when I enter a thread like this one in a technical forum I expect people much more educated than me debating FACTS, with DATA, following the laws of PHYSICS.
But what I get is a guy which shows no knowledge on the matter whatsoever, and in fact has admitted that the only thing backing his position is the belief in Red Bull Physics Wizardry inc. and Mage Adrian Newey, and even having no data whatsoever insists on being a pain in the ass to anyone who doesn't share his belief.
So if you believe in this project, great! I'm just asking you not to bother everyone that posts something before you have something concrete to work with, but as simple as it looks my request seems to be too much for you because, let's not forget, I'm talking with the guy that, in a technical forum, created a poll just to show how he thinks that Sebastian Vettel is god on earth (and actually got a warning for it).
I don't know if you noticed, but the interesting part of this thread ended around page three, simple because people like you who have nothing to add to the discussion keep ruining what could be one of the most interesting discussions we've ever had on this forum by insisting on debating a technical matter based on fanatism.
I hope you finally understand that this isn't facebook and stop ruining the technical bit of the technical forum.

[Nickel]

So let's regroup. Going through the thread and looking at articles posted, price tag is expected to be in excess of 1M USD. I take this as pretty vague and expect it to be significantly more, not 1.01M. So let's stop talking about what can be done for under a million bucks and accept this is going to be a staggeringly expensive vehicle.

Now let's talk physics then. Things it needs to lap Silverstone faster than an f1 car:
-Power to weight of at least 1.3hp per kg. Do we agree this figure can come down a little bit with active aero for drag reduction, or no agreement?

-Downforce to weight ratio of at least 2:1
This should be fairly straightforward in the absence of strict regulations governing bodywork, yes?

-Tires seem to be a big sticking (haha) point for some of you. Surely this is not insurmountable, to make a street legal tire with great grip via larger than normal dimensions, which can cope with such forces? It only needs to be able to do a few laps, no? Surely no one expects such a tire to run for hours, so please explain why this is unrealistic.

Am I missing anything else? I'm no engineer, but none of this seems insurmountable.

[SR71]

So let's regroup. Going through the thread and looking at articles posted, price tag is expected to be in excess of 1M USD. I take this as pretty vague and expect it to be significantly more, not 1.01M. So let's stop talking about what can be done for under a million bucks and accept this is going to be a staggeringly expensive vehicle.

Now let's talk physics then. Things it needs to lap Silverstone faster than an f1 car:
-Power to weight of at least 1.3hp per kg. Do we agree this figure can come down a little bit with active aero for drag reduction, or no agreement?

-Downforce to weight ratio of at least 2:1
This should be fairly straightforward in the absence of strict regulations governing bodywork, yes?

-Tires seem to be a big sticking (haha) point for some of you. Surely this is not insurmountable, to make a street legal tire with great grip via larger than normal dimensions, which can cope with such forces? It only needs to be able to do a few laps, no? Surely no one expects such a tire to run for hours, so please explain why this is unrealistic.

Am I missing anything else? I'm no engineer, but none of this seems insurmountable.

Pricing has already inflated to over 4m USD.

If they ran a 2m loss like Bugatti that's still a 6m USD car unlike the 3m Bugatti.

[djos]

So let's regroup. Going through the thread and looking at articles posted, price tag is expected to be in excess of 1M USD. I take this as pretty vague and expect it to be significantly more, not 1.01M. So let's stop talking about what can be done for under a million bucks and accept this is going to be a staggeringly expensive vehicle.

Now let's talk physics then. Things it needs to lap Silverstone faster than an f1 car:
-Power to weight of at least 1.3hp per kg. Do we agree this figure can come down a little bit with active aero for drag reduction, or no agreement?

-Downforce to weight ratio of at least 2:1
This should be fairly straightforward in the absence of strict regulations governing bodywork, yes?

-Tires seem to be a big sticking (haha) point for some of you. Surely this is not insurmountable, to make a street legal tire with great grip via larger than normal dimensions, which can cope with such forces? It only needs to be able to do a few laps, no? Surely no one expects such a tire to run for hours, so please explain why this is unrealistic.

Am I missing anything else? I'm no engineer, but none of this seems insurmountable.

I agree, sure it has a very high degree of difficulty, but definitely not impossible as some narrow minded folks here like to claim.

[SR71]

Basically all cars I mentioned share one very important thing with AM's project: they all follow the laws of physics.

Let me just get one thing straight:
I have nothing against your belief that this project is possible, in fact I said time and time again that the desire of me and every other "naysayer", as you like to call, is to be proven wrong.
The simple fact is, this is a technical forum, and when I enter a thread like this one in a technical forum I expect people much more educated than me debating FACTS, with DATA, following the laws of PHYSICS.
But what I get is a guy which shows no knowledge on the matter whatsoever, and in fact has admitted that the only thing backing his position is the belief in Red Bull Physics Wizardry inc. and Mage Adrian Newey, and even having no data whatsoever insists on being a pain in the ass to anyone who doesn't share his belief.
So if you believe in this project, great! I'm just asking you not to bother everyone that posts something before you have something concrete to work with, but as simple as it looks my request seems to be too much for you because, let's not forget, I'm talking with the guy that, in a technical forum, created a poll just to show how he thinks that Sebastian Vettel is god on earth (and actually got a warning for it).
I don't know if you noticed, but the interesting part of this thread ended around page three, simple because people like you who have nothing to add to the discussion keep ruining what could be one of the most interesting discussions we've ever had on this forum by insisting on debating a technical matter based on fanatism.
I hope you finally understand that this isn't facebook and stop ruining the technical bit of the technical forum.

And there you go. With one simple statement you have instantly placed yourself on one side of history. your side has said the following: the earth is the center of the universe, man will never fly, the moon is impossible.

Just remove yourself from this conversation, because you have the "laws of physics" to prove your side.

Just for my personal education, what "laws of physics" are those again? Could you please include references to these "laws" that 100% ensure that it's impossible for a car with: active aero, active suspension, UNLIMITED DOWNFORCE, ultra light weight, next generation rubber, and artificial intelligence computer assist to lap faster than an F1 car with EXTREMELY limited aero, NO traction control, NO active suspension, LIMITED rubber, ARTIFICIAL minimum weight, NO AI assistance?

Oh, im sorry, you didnt think of those things? Please refer to my earlier comments about engineers who "cannot".

EDIT: Dieglo, please take my previous paragraph as your personal invite to "add" something technical to this thread. So far, you have not. Specifically, i mean, what "law of physics". here is your chance buddy!

[hollus]

So, if this supercar has no hard constraints on budget, looks, comfort equipment, weight, durability, internal space, tires, size, road clearance, all weather usability, seating position, etc... Why not start on the other end?
What would it take to make an F1 car road legal? How much performance would that cost?