Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

[DiogoBrand]

Basically all cars I mentioned share one very important thing with AM's project: they all follow the laws of physics.

Let me just get one thing straight:
I have nothing against your belief that this project is possible, in fact I said time and time again that the desire of me and every other "naysayer", as you like to call, is to be proven wrong.
The simple fact is, this is a technical forum, and when I enter a thread like this one in a technical forum I expect people much more educated than me debating FACTS, with DATA, following the laws of PHYSICS.
But what I get is a guy which shows no knowledge on the matter whatsoever, and in fact has admitted that the only thing backing his position is the belief in Red Bull Physics Wizardry inc. and Mage Adrian Newey, and even having no data whatsoever insists on being a pain in the ass to anyone who doesn't share his belief.
So if you believe in this project, great! I'm just asking you not to bother everyone that posts something before you have something concrete to work with, but as simple as it looks my request seems to be too much for you because, let's not forget, I'm talking with the guy that, in a technical forum, created a poll just to show how he thinks that Sebastian Vettel is god on earth (and actually got a warning for it).
I don't know if you noticed, but the interesting part of this thread ended around page three, simple because people like you who have nothing to add to the discussion keep ruining what could be one of the most interesting discussions we've ever had on this forum by insisting on debating a technical matter based on fanatism.
I hope you finally understand that this isn't facebook and stop ruining the technical bit of the technical forum.

And there you go. With one simple statement you have instantly placed yourself on one side of history. your side has said the following: the earth is the center of the universe, man will never fly, the moon is impossible.

Just remove yourself from this conversation, because you have the "laws of physics" to prove your side.

Just for my personal education, what "laws of physics" are those again? Could you please include references to these "laws" that 100% ensure that it's impossible for a car with: active aero, active suspension, UNLIMITED DOWNFORCE, ultra light weight, next generation rubber, and artificial intelligence computer assist to lap faster than an F1 car with EXTREMELY limited aero, NO traction control, NO active suspension, LIMITED rubber, ARTIFICIAL minimum weight, NO AI assistance?

Oh, im sorry, you didnt think of those things? Please refer to my earlier comments about engineers who "cannot".

EDIT: Dieglo, please take my previous paragraph as your personal invite to "add" something technical to this thread. So far, you have not. Specifically, i mean, what "law of physics". here is your change buddy!

1 - The point of that post wasn't about the project, but about the way you discuss it which doesn't fit on this forum.
2 - Not a single time on that post have I said the project is impossible.
3 - Maybe Red Bull doesn't hire "cannot" engineers, as you so much like to mention, but you can rest assured that even more unlikely is that they'll hire a "can-do" engineer with no engineering knowledge
4 - If you don't have knowledge to contribute to the discussion, leave it for those who do, as I was doing before you ruined it;
5 - I'll stop replying to you now because I don't want to be the guy to waste unnecessary time arguing with the creator of the beautiful "Sebastian Vettel new Messiah" thread, and will just lament the fact that a thread with so much potential was ruined by plain fanatism.

[SR71]

Basically all cars I mentioned share one very important thing with AM's project: they all follow the laws of physics.

Let me just get one thing straight:
I have nothing against your belief that this project is possible, in fact I said time and time again that the desire of me and every other "naysayer", as you like to call, is to be proven wrong.
The simple fact is, this is a technical forum, and when I enter a thread like this one in a technical forum I expect people much more educated than me debating FACTS, with DATA, following the laws of PHYSICS.
But what I get is a guy which shows no knowledge on the matter whatsoever, and in fact has admitted that the only thing backing his position is the belief in Red Bull Physics Wizardry inc. and Mage Adrian Newey, and even having no data whatsoever insists on being a pain in the ass to anyone who doesn't share his belief.
So if you believe in this project, great! I'm just asking you not to bother everyone that posts something before you have something concrete to work with, but as simple as it looks my request seems to be too much for you because, let's not forget, I'm talking with the guy that, in a technical forum, created a poll just to show how he thinks that Sebastian Vettel is god on earth (and actually got a warning for it).
I don't know if you noticed, but the interesting part of this thread ended around page three, simple because people like you who have nothing to add to the discussion keep ruining what could be one of the most interesting discussions we've ever had on this forum by insisting on debating a technical matter based on fanatism.
I hope you finally understand that this isn't facebook and stop ruining the technical bit of the technical forum.

And there you go. With one simple statement you have instantly placed yourself on one side of history. your side has said the following: the earth is the center of the universe, man will never fly, the moon is impossible.

Just remove yourself from this conversation, because you have the "laws of physics" to prove your side.

Just for my personal education, what "laws of physics" are those again? Could you please include references to these "laws" that 100% ensure that it's impossible for a car with: active aero, active suspension, UNLIMITED DOWNFORCE, ultra light weight, next generation rubber, and artificial intelligence computer assist to lap faster than an F1 car with EXTREMELY limited aero, NO traction control, NO active suspension, LIMITED rubber, ARTIFICIAL minimum weight, NO AI assistance?

Oh, im sorry, you didnt think of those things? Please refer to my earlier comments about engineers who "cannot".

EDIT: Dieglo, please take my previous paragraph as your personal invite to "add" something technical to this thread. So far, you have not. Specifically, i mean, what "law of physics". here is your change buddy!

1 - The point of that post wasn't about the project, but about the way you discuss it which doesn't fit on this forum.
2 - Not a single time on that post have I said the project is impossible.
3 - Maybe Red Bull doesn't hire "cannot" engineers, as you so much like to mention, but you can rest assured that even more unlikely is that they'll hire a "can-do" engineer with no engineering knowledge
4 - If you don't have knowledge to contribute to the discussion, leave it for those who do, as I was doing before you ruined it;
5 - I'll stop replying to you now because I don't want to be the guy to waste unnecessary time arguing with the creator of the beautiful "Sebastian Vettel new Messiah" thread, and will just lament the fact that a thread with so much potential was ruined by plain fanatism.

I agree, without any proof that this project is "impossible" you should stop replying. You didnt need 5 points to demonstrate your lack of ability to show the impossibility. You've also had multiple chances to demonstrate competence on the subject.

Since after 15 pages, I was still the first to bring up an auto-pilot system (embarrassingly I admit, because you guys are so smart!) - I'll just assume that I'm not dealing with the brightest bulbs on the bush. Admittedly, I live in Silicon Valley - where things like self driving race cars already exist.

It sucks to live in the future. I'm just trying to help you guys.

EDIT: Just to recap, you completely agree that you have NO "laws of physics" as you earlier stated that prove your point?

[djos]

1 - The point of that post wasn't about the project, but about the way you discuss it which doesn't fit on this forum.

Pot kettle black much?

Your aggressive negatively is doing the discussion no favors at all.

[Cannonballer]

So let's regroup. Going through the thread and looking at articles posted, price tag is expected to be in excess of 1M USD. I take this as pretty vague and expect it to be significantly more, not 1.01M. So let's stop talking about what can be done for under a million bucks and accept this is going to be a staggeringly expensive vehicle.

Now let's talk physics then. Things it needs to lap Silverstone faster than an f1 car:
-Power to weight of at least 1.3hp per kg. Do we agree this figure can come down a little bit with active aero for drag reduction, or no agreement?

-Downforce to weight ratio of at least 2:1
This should be fairly straightforward in the absence of strict regulations governing bodywork, yes?

-Tires seem to be a big sticking (haha) point for some of you. Surely this is not insurmountable, to make a street legal tire with great grip via larger than normal dimensions, which can cope with such forces? It only needs to be able to do a few laps, no? Surely no one expects such a tire to run for hours, so please explain why this is unrealistic.

Am I missing anything else? I'm no engineer, but none of this seems insurmountable.

Pricing has already inflated to over 4m USD.

If they ran a 2m loss like Bugatti that's still a 6m USD car unlike the 3m Bugatti.

The price has begun to inflate. Next the performance goals will deflate. Finally, reality will set in and the project will be abandoned.

I think that this is just a PR exercise for Red Bull and Aston Martin intended to create a buzz about their joint project. I doubt anyone at either with a clue about engineering and/or physics thought it would be possible.

[SR71]

So let's regroup. Going through the thread and looking at articles posted, price tag is expected to be in excess of 1M USD. I take this as pretty vague and expect it to be significantly more, not 1.01M. So let's stop talking about what can be done for under a million bucks and accept this is going to be a staggeringly expensive vehicle.

Now let's talk physics then. Things it needs to lap Silverstone faster than an f1 car:
-Power to weight of at least 1.3hp per kg. Do we agree this figure can come down a little bit with active aero for drag reduction, or no agreement?

-Downforce to weight ratio of at least 2:1
This should be fairly straightforward in the absence of strict regulations governing bodywork, yes?

-Tires seem to be a big sticking (haha) point for some of you. Surely this is not insurmountable, to make a street legal tire with great grip via larger than normal dimensions, which can cope with such forces? It only needs to be able to do a few laps, no? Surely no one expects such a tire to run for hours, so please explain why this is unrealistic.

Am I missing anything else? I'm no engineer, but none of this seems insurmountable.

Pricing has already inflated to over 4m USD.

If they ran a 2m loss like Bugatti that's still a 6m USD car unlike the 3m Bugatti.

The price has begun to inflate. Next the performance goals will deflate. Finally, reality will set in and the project will be abandoned.

I think that this is just a PR exercise for Red Bull and Aston Martin intended to create a buzz about their joint project. I doubt anyone at either with a clue about engineering and/or physics thought it would be possible.

You saw Adrian Newey at the press briefing right? Do you include him in the "without a clue" comment?

Also, what BUZZ does this announcement make? Their F1 partnership is nothing, they are not a major sponsor on the car. You mean to suggest they wasted everyone's time just to highlight that AM has a 20cm badge on the front of RB's 2016 F1 car? Wow....

EDIT: For historical reference, could you please provide some examples of production proclamations by high end automotive manufactures that were not followed up within the last 5 years?

I just want to understand why anyone thinks companies this large and heavily resourced would go out of their way to lie about a production project.

[FoxHound]

1 - The point of that post wasn't about the project, but about the way you discuss it which doesn't fit on this forum.

Pot kettle black much?

Your aggressive negatively is doing the discussion no favors at all.

Diogo has demonstrated the patience of a saint, in the face of what can only be described as stubborn obnoxious retaliatory trollism.
He has posted his objections based on facts, rather than anything anti-newey-AM-RB.

There is a benign pacifism to his posts, if you take the time to read them, that belies your charge of "aggressive negativity". I see only "constructive positivity".

At the end of the day, making huge claims as has been done on the project will inevitably lead to sceptism.
Believing it 100% without any proof or means of how it's getting done is like chewing gum to solve a maths problem.

[djos]

1 - The point of that post wasn't about the project, but about the way you discuss it which doesn't fit on this forum.

Pot kettle black much?

Your aggressive negatively is doing the discussion no favors at all.

Diogo has demonstrated the patience of a saint, in the face of what can only be described as stubborn obnoxious retaliatory trollism.
He has posted his objections based on facts, rather than anything anti-newey-AM-RB.

There is a benign pacifism to his posts, if you take the time to read them, that belies your charge of "aggressive negativity". I see only "constructive positivity".

At the end of the day, making huge claims as has been done on the project will inevitably lead to sceptism.
Believing it 100% without any proof or means of how it's getting done is like chewing gum to solve a maths problem.

C'mon fox, he and others deliberately ignore the huge potential that Adrian Newey can tap in banned and current F1 technologies that have frankly barely been tapped by other car makers.

[SR71]

They also blatantly ignore this:

"And the initial indications we have had from it is that it has generated more downforce than any car that we have ever produced."

Christian Horner speaking about the car already in development.

And this:

"Although Aston Martin has not finalised the engine specification for the car yet, it has confirmed that its performance will be helped by extreme ground effect aerodynamics.

Speaking about the plan, Newey said: "My final-year project [at university] was on ground effect aerodynamics supplied to a road car. When I first started thinking about this project, I dragged up that project from 1980 and referred to it."

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/aston ... rs-680099/


Not sure why red bulls own words don't count with these guys. They must know something AM/RB don't.

[DiogoBrand]

Red herring fallacies
A red herring fallacy, one of the main subtypes of fallacies of relevance, is an error in logic where a proposition is, or is intended to be, misleading in order to make irrelevant or false inferences. In the general case any logical inference based on fake arguments, intended to replace the lack of real arguments or to replace implicitly the subject of the discussion.

Appeal to authority (argumentum ab auctoritate) – where an assertion is deemed true because of the position or authority of the person asserting it.

[FoxHound]

C'mon fox, he and others deliberately ignore the huge potential that Adrian Newey can tap in banned and current F1 technologies.

No, they do not as don't I. We very simply are outlining the implausible notion of a roadcar doing silverstone quicker than an F1 car. This is not ignorance, it is awareness and competence.

The very basics come down to interpretation and physics.
A road car must abide by some specifics, and it must be a road car rather than a track special as defined by AM's PR garb.

Been over this spiel more times than I need to....but the basic premise is that it is complete and utter BS to put forward a notion of fantasy as fact rather than what we know from what has gone before.
Which leads me to...

tap in banned and current F1 technologies that have frankly barely been tapped by other car makers.

This is just plain wrong.

Chris Harris banged a P1 McLaren around Portimao with active suspension and adjustable aero.
On a warm perfect track day they did 1m51.7.
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/algarve-i ... t-portimao

A 2009 F1 car could do it 1m34 in wet and hails conditions!
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/64726/1/po ... nuary.html

17 seconds difference in conditions completely in favour of the roadcar.

By deduction and through some very abrasive calculus you can deduce the optimal times to be in the region of 1m24 or less. For a 2009 F1 car.

And you have issue with "deliberate ignorance"?

There comes a time when constructive debate ends, and it as this juncture where if you see real plausible factual points to the contrary, outline them so, or be in contempt of factual opinion.

[djos]

Fox I totally disagree, while current super cars have excellent aero, none is particularly extreme and there's a lot left they could be doing to utilise fully active aero.

[flmkane]

Fox I totally disagree, while current super cars have excellent aero, none is particularly extreme and there's a lot left they could be doing to utilise fully active aero.

Nonsense. And ignorance.

Extreme active aero results in a car that is ultra sensitive, with unpredictable variation in downforce, balance and grip.

The driver will be killed, unless he is an f1 driver or ex fighter pilot.

[djos]

Fox I totally disagree, while current super cars have excellent aero, none is particularly extreme and there's a lot left they could be doing to utilise fully active aero.

Nonsense. And ignorance.

Extreme active aero results in a car that is ultra sensitive, with unpredictable variation in downforce, balance and grip.

The driver will be killed, unless he is an f1 driver or ex fighter pilot.

Then you totally misunderstand the possibilities.

[flmkane]

Fox I totally disagree, while current super cars have excellent aero, none is particularly extreme and there's a lot left they could be doing to utilise fully active aero.

Nonsense. And ignorance.

Extreme active aero results in a car that is ultra sensitive, with unpredictable variation in downforce, balance and grip.

The driver will be killed, unless he is an f1 driver or ex fighter pilot.

Then you totally misunderstand the possibilities.

Bullshit. Do you even understand physics? Newton's second law?

[djos]

Nonsense. And ignorance.

Extreme active aero results in a car that is ultra sensitive, with unpredictable variation in downforce, balance and grip.

The driver will be killed, unless he is an f1 driver or ex fighter pilot.

Then you totally misunderstand the possibilities.

Bullshit. Do you even understand physics? Newton's second law?

Personally I'm happy to wait and see what he comes up with, Until we have proof in the form of a car, if Adrian Newey claims he can do something I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt based on his track record.