Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Sayeman]

Mclaren is just hiding behind Honda, trying to convince us that they have the best/2nd best chassis on the grid.
Honda should terminate their contract and join up with Redbull, Redbull will be more than happy to have that opportunity.
Let Mclaren go back to Merc Engines. All that best chassis excuse will fall flat big time.

[PlatinumZealot]

Oh, but I think the Renault engine is better than the Honda still.

[chenpei24730]

Or why not get a compressor 50% larger than the Mercedes one. A guaranteed 50% extra horse power with that logic, no?

If you read the interviews and quotes, even Honda is hinting that the compressor in the V is not working.

Right but question is if that was apparent the way some of you make it out to be.

If I remember correctly, in 2014, Honda had their own design or concept of engine for 2015. But MC told Honda that they must build a engine according to the idea of Size Zero. So Honda had to give up their original engine version , and only had one year to design and build the engine based on the concept of Size Zero. As a result, 2015 season was a disaster.

Ferrari found their 2014 version engine failed, so they enlarged the size of turbo in 2015 . It turned out to be a right decision.At the mean time, MC still stick to their size zero concept. As a result, 2016 season will be wasted.

What I'm trying to say is, building a larger engine(with more horse power and reliability) first, then trying to make the engine smaller(to gain aerodynamic advantage), that is the most reasonable way. But MC wanted Honda to build an engine with the same performance as Mecedes while with much smaller size at the very beginning! Not to mention Honda's absence from F1.

For me, Honda has nothing to blame and MC has to take responsibility for the failure.

[amho]

I don'r know why u guys always insisting that Honda power deficit is due to small compressor inside the v, as we know fuel consumption is limited to 100 Kg/h so demanding for a bigger and bigger compressor isn't reasonable and for sure Honda engineers know the best AFR and required compressor size.I think the hurdle is finding the best turbine size for best harvesting strategy and engine demands.

[taperoo2k]

Mclaren is just hiding behind Honda, trying to convince us that they have the best/2nd best chassis on the grid.
Honda should terminate their contract and join up with Redbull, Redbull will be more than happy to have that opportunity.
Let Mclaren go back to Merc Engines. All that best chassis excuse will fall flat big time.

Nobody really knows how good or bad McLaren's chassis design is until Honda delivers a competitive power unit.
Blaming this that or the other on McLaren or Honda is pointless. Honda seems to have a recovery/development plan in place that it's working on.

Both companies know what they have to do in order to catch up. If they will or not ? That's the question none of us have an answer to as that's just the nature of sport. I suspect if Honda improves it's PU significantly more than Renault and the clause in it's contract with McLaren over exclusivity expires after this season, Red Bull will come knocking again.

[NL_Fer]

https://twitter.com/ams_formula1/status ... 9839619073

In Short: Merc Type Pre Chamber Injection Magic at Canada. Compressor out of the V in 2017. Nothing new, just from a mildly reliable Source.

As we suspected here the last weeks. So by next year Honda will one year behind on combustion and two years behind on turbo. Catch up by 2019 ?

[NL_Fer]

I don'r know why u guys always insisting that Honda power deficit is due to small compressor inside the v, as we know fuel consumption is limited to 100 Kg/h so demanding for a bigger and bigger compressor isn't reasonable and for sure Honda engineers know the best AFR and required compressor size.I think the hurdle is finding the best turbine size for best harvesting strategy and engine demands.

Turbine and compressor are related. A small compressor needs to spin faster, so turbine needs to small and light also. A bigger turbine has a lower rpm limit, so compressor needs to be big also, to feed enough air.

[Cannonballer]

Late last year a member of HRD asked his uncle(was on Gato engine team in 80's) to take a look at the Honda PU and write a review on it.After the Senior Engineers and Arias read his report,they asked him to come back to work on the PU.There are three other consultants on his team. Mclaren had nothing to do with this,europress just talking from their ass.

Because the 2016 PU was already design by the time they got there and the very little time before the season started,their ideas are not in todays PU.

And the token system is killing them this year.14 tokens is not enough for what is needed to be done.(secondary injection,bigger compressor and better ERS cooling)

The only thing Honda did wrong with the PU was taking the wrong path of size zero.(it cost them a year because of overheating problems.....still have some problems today and put a cap on performance with the compressor in the V)

I know who the uncle is....

I really miss his contributions to the thread/site.

[Serbian4ever]

By all parameters now, we can say for sure that Honda power unit is better then Renault power unit for one single lap and we still have Red Bull in front of McLaren at qualification

[drunkf1fan]

By all parameters now, we can say for sure that Honda power unit is better then Renault power unit for one single lap and we still have Red Bull in front of McLaren at qualification

Based on what exactly?

Australia Ricciardo was 6/10ths ahead of Mclaren, Kvyat had issues. Bahrain Ricciardo 8/10ths ahead of Vandoorne, China, Ricciardo 2 seconds ahead of Alonso. Yeah their excuse for missing out on Q3 was not getting in their second run on fresh tires, 99% of the time fresh tires means gaining 3-7th/10's depending on the track, I'd say 4/10th's on average and that is about what teams in Q3 found between used and fresh rubber, so I'd say they were at least a second down maybe more.

But in FP where Honda have been pushing it earlier than other teams who all turn up the engine for qualifying we can say for sure Honda are ahead. I'd be surprised if Honda qualify ahead of both RBRs yet even if they do 1 out of 4 races means exactly nothing. If Honda manage it this race and next race then maybe it would be a sign of progression. But so far they Renault powered cars have spanked them in all three qualifying sessions. Absolutely insane to say Honda is better than Renault for a single lap based off a single free practice session.

[BeardedAce]

Based on what exactly?

Australia Ricciardo was 6/10ths ahead of Mclaren, Kvyat had issues. Bahrain Ricciardo 8/10ths ahead of Vandoorne, China, Ricciardo 2 seconds ahead of Alonso. Yeah their excuse for missing out on Q3 was not getting in their second run on fresh tires, 99% of the time fresh tires means gaining 3-7th/10's depending on the track, I'd say 4/10th's on average and that is about what teams in Q3 found between used and fresh rubber, so I'd say they were at least a second down maybe more.

But in FP where Honda have been pushing it earlier than other teams who all turn up the engine for qualifying we can say for sure Honda are ahead. I'd be surprised if Honda qualify ahead of both RBRs yet even if they do 1 out of 4 races means exactly nothing. If Honda manage it this race and next race then maybe it would be a sign of progression. But so far they Renault powered cars have spanked them in all three qualifying sessions. Absolutely insane to say Honda is better than Renault for a single lap based off a single free practice session.

Maybe we should consider the possibility that Redbull has a better chassis than Mclaren?
Why don't we compare Factory Renault team to Mc-Honda too while we are at it. If Renault PU is better why aren't they beating Mc-Honda?
Redbull had to run with low downforce in China(according to Ric) to compensate for the lack of grunt, still 2 cars in the podium.

[drunkf1fan]

Maybe we should consider the possibility that Redbull has a better chassis than Mclaren?
Why don't we compare Factory Renault team to Mc-Honda too while we are at it. If Renault PU is better why aren't they beating Mc-Honda?
Redbull had to run with low downforce in China(according to Ric) to compensate for the lack of grunt, still 2 cars in the podium.

Firstly I'm not saying Renault faster than Honda, I'm arguing against someone claiming that Honda are 'by all parameters clearly ahead of Renault now". I only have to point out the lack of evidence for his claim, I don't need to provide evidence that Renault are clearly faster than Honda because I'm not claiming that.

However RBR/Mclaren are basically massive budget teams with similar spending where Renault took over a basically bankrupt team that hasn't spent big for this year nor had time to develop heavily. In fact it was only this week that news of Renault approving a significant increase in spending for a chassis push. RBR/Mclaren are the natural comparison and Mclaren run around claiming their chassis is amongst the best on the grid, Renault don't claim that.

Once again Renault powered engines and in fact Ferrari 2015 powered engines beat Honda over a single lap again, making for 4 out of 4 Renault vs Honda powered cars in qualifying. There is literally not a single hint that Honda is clearly better than Renault.

Also Mclaren have multiple times said they are running less downforce to compensate for the engine so once again, a better comparison for RBR.

[Serbian4ever]

Maybe we should consider the possibility that Redbull has a better chassis than Mclaren?
Why don't we compare Factory Renault team to Mc-Honda too while we are at it. If Renault PU is better why aren't they beating Mc-Honda?
Redbull had to run with low downforce in China(according to Ric) to compensate for the lack of grunt, still 2 cars in the podium.

Firstly I'm not saying Renault faster than Honda, I'm arguing against someone claiming that Honda are 'by all parameters clearly ahead of Renault now". I only have to point out the lack of evidence for his claim, I don't need to provide evidence that Renault are clearly faster than Honda because I'm not claiming that.

However RBR/Mclaren are basically massive budget teams with similar spending where Renault took over a basically bankrupt team that hasn't spent big for this year nor had time to develop heavily. In fact it was only this week that news of Renault approving a significant increase in spending for a chassis push. RBR/Mclaren are the natural comparison and Mclaren run around claiming their chassis is amongst the best on the grid, Renault don't claim that.

Once again Renault powered engines and in fact Ferrari 2015 powered engines beat Honda over a single lap again, making for 4 out of 4 Renault vs Honda powered cars in qualifying. There is literally not a single hint that Honda is clearly better than Renault.

Also Mclaren have multiple times said they are running less downforce to compensate for the engine so once again, a better comparison for RBR.

I compare only power units by speed trap and there u can see power. they use almost same setups but red bull is much better not because of engine. +- 2. kmh and u have big gap. btw i said Honda is for sure better in 1 single lap. i dont compare red bull with Mclraren i compare Honda pu with renault pu.

[Serbian4ever]

with development free, there is no more excuses, if they dont deliver next year, they will look complete losers, more so, than now where they can to some extent hide behind the token system, but now they need throw gazillions on developing the current pu and a complete new one for next year

U cant say that because they are even more limited with financial regulations. with this new regulations without tokens it will be worse.

[drunkf1fan]

I compare only power units by speed trap and there u can see power. they use almost same setups but red bull is much better not because of engine. +- 2. kmh and u have big gap.

Speed trap is not a good indicator of overall performance. You can hit the speed trap reading 10kph faster but average 15kph slower over a whole straight. How fast an engine is at a single point on the track is somewhat irrelevant to how fast the engine is over the lap as a whole.

However saying that, speed trap in China qualifying Alonso 329.5, Ricciardo 329.5, Mag/Palmer 328, button 325. Not sure that is proof that Honda is clearly better either.

Realistically with these engines anyone can burst use all their ERS power down one straight for a great speed trap result but then be slower on the lap overall with lacking ers power. Absolute top speed isn't the key to these engines, highest sustainable speed is the key to a fast car.