Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[diffuser]

Wouldn't moving the compressor to the back also require changes to the car?

Moving anything anywhere by definition requires changes to the car, but this would be a smaller change than moving the compressor to the front.
Putting the compressor and turbine closer together than opposite ends of the engine means a smaller common shaft too, so smaller engineering challenges in that area.

I suspect it's aerodynamically beneficial to have less PU componentry at the back due to ducting and pipework, but I've also no doubt it can be made to work either way: Merc vs. Ferrari proves that either works (OK, Merc is ahead but both engines are pretty competitive). What seems fairly clear is that Honda's original packaging idea isn't working, so something's going to have to change.

I think, If they want to change the compressor size this year and it nolonger will fit in the V, then the only choice is to move it to the back. Moving it to the front would require shortening the distance between the the ICE and the rear wheels. Just something you can't do during the year (short Transmission, longer wheel base or some other way).

Moving it to the back. The only thing that would be feasible with the tokens they have to spend, would be moving the compressor behind the turbine. Everything else would stay where it is. The compressor will feel the heat from the exhaust and the turbine being there so it isn't ideal. They can feed the compressed air into the inter-cooler in the side pods and backup into the intake from there..... Not sure how the exhaust would work though.

I can't see moving the compressor to the back being anything more than a compromised solution with the tokens they have available.

[Sasha]

What I'm hearing second hand in the halls is...

Right off this year because they can't fix the PU this season.The design
(compressor in the V) went too far the wrong way from day one and they can't fix it with the token system and no testing rules.Only MB got the formula right from day one and Ferrari caught on the fastest but is still a year behind with Renault now catching on.Honda is about two years behind.

Honda is now working on two CC Designs for the 2017 PU......with the tokens left this year,there isn't much they can do except little upgrades.Pretty much right off new whole new TC design because that is almost impossible to do in season.Also a new CC design works best only with a whole PU package change.

[godlameroso]

I knew the MGU-H was their weakness. It makes too much sense and I've repeated it ad-nauseum for everyone to tell me I don't know a damn thing about turbos(lol). There are potentially 400KW available in the exhaust, most turbines are around 35% efficient, you really need a new approach to get more efficiency from the turbine. That's 140KW - 80KW to run the turbine leaves you with 60KW self sustaining mode, that's what Honda thought was good enough.

http://articles.sae.org/7160/

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. ... 020591.pdf

By increasing the density(by achieving super criticality of exhaust gas and fuel injection) and carefully controlling the combustion by-products with new fuel chemistry you could dramatically improve turbine efficiency. What is a ~35% efficient turbine can become up to 12% more efficient. @ 47% efficiency the turbine can generate up to ~110KW in self sustaining mode. That's your 20% right there.

[papatel]

Without sounding like a fool. Can someone kindly explain what "self sustaining mode" means? Does that refer to the MGU-K or the MGU-H or both? Does it mean when MGU-H (if its the H) is acting as a load on the turbine shaft recovering energy but increasing engine back pressure at all times. Ideally you'd want the MGU-H recovering only when Turbo RPM exceeds MAX limit, correct? In MGU-K case, would you ever let MGU-K act as load on crankshaft while driver is 100% throttle? I'd imagine the K is recovering only during braking or 0% throttle events. Or does self sustaining mode just mean non-qualifying mode...i.e. not trying to deplete out the battery in 1 lap.

Sorry, I'm an electrical engineer and I'm used to dealing with transistors and semiconductor physics at the nm scale.

[hurril]

I knew the MGU-H was their weakness. It makes too much sense and I've repeated it ad-nauseum for everyone to tell me I don't know a damn thing about turbos(lol). There are potentially 400KW available in the exhaust, most turbines are around 35% efficient, you really need a new approach to get more efficiency from the turbine. That's 140KW - 80KW to run the turbine leaves you with 60KW self sustaining mode, that's what Honda thought was good enough.

http://articles.sae.org/7160/

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. ... 020591.pdf

By increasing the density(by achieving super criticality of exhaust gas and fuel injection) and carefully controlling the combustion by-products with new fuel chemistry you could dramatically improve turbine efficiency. What is a ~35% efficient turbine can become up to 12% more efficient. @ 47% efficiency the turbine can generate up to ~110KW in self sustaining mode. That's your 20% right there.

How does the turbine become more efficient from fuel additives? Surely turbine efficiency is a mechanical (or otherwise hardware-related) property?

[diffuser]

I knew the MGU-H was their weakness. It makes too much sense and I've repeated it ad-nauseum for everyone to tell me I don't know a damn thing about turbos(lol). There are potentially 400KW available in the exhaust, most turbines are around 35% efficient, you really need a new approach to get more efficiency from the turbine. That's 140KW - 80KW to run the turbine leaves you with 60KW self sustaining mode, that's what Honda thought was good enough.

http://articles.sae.org/7160/

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. ... 020591.pdf

By increasing the density(by achieving super criticality of exhaust gas and fuel injection) and carefully controlling the combustion by-products with new fuel chemistry you could dramatically improve turbine efficiency. What is a ~35% efficient turbine can become up to 12% more efficient. @ 47% efficiency the turbine can generate up to ~110KW in self sustaining mode. That's your 20% right there.

How does the turbine become more efficient from fuel additives? Surely turbine efficiency is a mechanical (or otherwise hardware-related) property?

I think he's saying getting more out the turbine by creating a denser exhaust.

[Webber2011]

I know a lot of you guys doubt Wazari's legitimacy, but I talk to him quite regularly via pm.
I have no reason to think he is anything other than 100% genuine.

He recently told me that compared to Mercedes the Honda PU is down about 20% with regards to energy recovery, and 15 % as far as fuel efficiency.
His opinion is that it's almost impossible to regain that deficit using the current configuration

This next bit is just my own opinion.
If they have realised it's near on impossible to to match Merc' with the current layout, then the only option is to follow their design.
Unless they have something else up their sleeve I can't see any other way.

I'm lost compared to you guys when it comes to the real technical stuff, so I'm asking, is there a way they can do it apart from going the Mercedes route ?

He does not answer PM to me any more, because i want direct and clean answers.

Did he said when the next PU update is or not?

Last time we spoke of it he said he hoped his combustion chamber update would be applied at Spa, but it's up to Nakamura and Hasegawa to ultimately decide how the tokens are used.

[godlameroso]

I knew the MGU-H was their weakness. It makes too much sense and I've repeated it ad-nauseum for everyone to tell me I don't know a damn thing about turbos(lol). There are potentially 400KW available in the exhaust, most turbines are around 35% efficient, you really need a new approach to get more efficiency from the turbine. That's 140KW - 80KW to run the turbine leaves you with 60KW self sustaining mode, that's what Honda thought was good enough.

http://articles.sae.org/7160/

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. ... 020591.pdf

By increasing the density(by achieving super criticality of exhaust gas and fuel injection) and carefully controlling the combustion by-products with new fuel chemistry you could dramatically improve turbine efficiency. What is a ~35% efficient turbine can become up to 12% more efficient. @ 47% efficiency the turbine can generate up to ~110KW in self sustaining mode. That's your 20% right there.

How does the turbine become more efficient from fuel additives? Surely turbine efficiency is a mechanical (or otherwise hardware-related) property?

First I suppose you should understand what a supercritical fluid is, by the way super critical CO2 has higher density than water, and water has much higher density than gas. Higher density allows you to generate more power at a lower RPM. Not only that but by using super critical fuel injection you can have a much better mixture than traditional fuel injection. By altering fuel chemistry and the turbomachinery to take advantage of this, you could very well make a huge leap in efficiency.

[NL_Fer]

Ferrari has shown a MGU-H/Compressor/Turbine works an can reach Mercedes. The difference is probably the 3 years advantage Mercedes has with their setup. Ferrari has changed theirs for 2015 and for 2016.

And is just faster for Honda to copy the Ferrari layout instead of developing the long 120000rpm turboshaft like Mercedes. Also a clever intercooler and tubing configuration can get them really close to Mercedes.

And finaly don't forget the PU wil become slightly less important in the 2017 high downforce cars, but that would mean McLaren has to up their game.

[godlameroso]

Without sounding like a fool. Can someone kindly explain what "self sustaining mode" means? Does that refer to the MGU-K or the MGU-H or both? Does it mean when MGU-H (if its the H) is acting as a load on the turbine shaft recovering energy but increasing engine back pressure at all times. Ideally you'd want the MGU-H recovering only when Turbo RPM exceeds MAX limit, correct? In MGU-K case, would you ever let MGU-K act as load on crankshaft while driver is 100% throttle? I'd imagine the K is recovering only during braking or 0% throttle events. Or does self sustaining mode just mean non-qualifying mode...i.e. not trying to deplete out the battery in 1 lap.

Sorry, I'm an electrical engineer and I'm used to dealing with transistors and semiconductor physics at the nm scale.

Self sustaining mode is the MGU-H bypassing the ERS and sending power directly to the MGU-K while not using any power from the ERS itself. That means exhaust gases are enough to maintain maximum engine power via boost pressure, while at the same time generating electricity via the MGU-H. Supercritical fuel injection would not only create better combustion but it would also create denser exhaust gases allowing the MGU-H to produce more power at lower RPMS.

[godlameroso]

I knew the MGU-H was their weakness. It makes too much sense and I've repeated it ad-nauseum for everyone to tell me I don't know a damn thing about turbos(lol). There are potentially 400KW available in the exhaust, most turbines are around 35% efficient, you really need a new approach to get more efficiency from the turbine. That's 140KW - 80KW to run the turbine leaves you with 60KW self sustaining mode, that's what Honda thought was good enough.

http://articles.sae.org/7160/

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. ... 020591.pdf

By increasing the density(by achieving super criticality of exhaust gas and fuel injection) and carefully controlling the combustion by-products with new fuel chemistry you could dramatically improve turbine efficiency. What is a ~35% efficient turbine can become up to 12% more efficient. @ 47% efficiency the turbine can generate up to ~110KW in self sustaining mode. That's your 20% right there.

How does the turbine become more efficient from fuel additives? Surely turbine efficiency is a mechanical (or otherwise hardware-related) property?

I think he's saying getting more out the turbine by creating a denser exhaust.

Not just turbine, but combustion itself can be dramatically improved by supercritical fuel injection, yes it's possible to do so.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/4146 ... injection/

More reading:
http://www.slideshare.net/saeedahmad700 ... nar-report

[papatel]

Thanks for the explanation. However, for MGU-H to produce more power at lower RPMS suggests the MGU-H is recovering (i.e. acting as a load to the turbine shaft) even at RPMs below the max boost pressure limit. I had thought MGU-H is only recovering when boost pressure > max limit (i.e. instead of wastegate to slow down the turbine shaft)....

[

Self sustaining mode is the MGU-H bypassing the ERS and sending power directly to the MGU-K while not using any power from the ERS itself. That means exhaust gases are enough to maintain maximum engine power via boost pressure, while at the same time generating electricity via the MGU-H. Supercritical fuel injection would not only create better combustion but it would also create denser exhaust gases allowing the MGU-H to produce more power at lower RPMS.

[godlameroso]

Thanks for the explanation. However, for MGU-H to produce more power at lower RPMS suggests the MGU-H is recovering (i.e. acting as a load to the turbine shaft) even at RPMs below the max boost pressure limit. I had thought MGU-H is only recovering when boost pressure > max limit (i.e. instead of wastegate to slow down the turbine shaft)....

[

Self sustaining mode is the MGU-H bypassing the ERS and sending power directly to the MGU-K while not using any power from the ERS itself. That means exhaust gases are enough to maintain maximum engine power via boost pressure, while at the same time generating electricity via the MGU-H. Supercritical fuel injection would not only create better combustion but it would also create denser exhaust gases allowing the MGU-H to produce more power at lower RPMS.

MGU-H recovers energy whenever the compressor needs to be slowed down, for whatever reason. There are many reasons why you'd need to.

[gruntguru]

Perhaps a simpler way of considering "self-sustaining mode":

It is the continuous power available if there was no battery - ie crankshaft plus surplus turbine power (after driving the compressor.)

Self sustaining power is also the output used to calculate thermal efficiency since it represents the total mechanical energy obtained from a given quantity of fuel.

[Abarth]

[[...]combustion itself can be dramatically improved by supercritical fuel injection, yes it's possible to do so.
[...]

At what temperature and pressure the fuel goes in a supercritical state?