Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

[mrluke]

Why does it weigh twice as much as the Caparo?

Sounds like a great start

[SR71]

Some new info via a Monaco customer preview:

-wont be available worldwide so it wont need to meet all countries safety/emissions standards (europe and middle east should see the car on public roads - US customers might be track only?)
-Just over LMP1 weight (meaning under 1000kgs)
-close to 5 million USD (or 2 bugatti's)

http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/17/11966 ... 1-99-units

[SR71]

Why does it weigh twice as much as the Caparo?

Sounds like a great start

recent reports suggest somewhere around 900kgs...

[graham.reeds]

No way in hell would Mercedes use their masterpiece to propel a Red Bull project. Especially one that could breed Red Bull into a competitor a la McLaren.

This isn't Red Bull, this is Adrian Newey. Merc provides all the engines for Aston Martin. Merc also provides engines to Pagani and others. The engine that Pagani use is the same engine that was in Mercs flagship car at one point. This engine is known to propel a car to over 200mph normally aspirated so sticking a couple of turbos on it should give you a but more oomph.

[Jolle]

No way in hell would Mercedes use their masterpiece to propel a Red Bull project. Especially one that could breed Red Bull into a competitor a la McLaren.

This isn't Red Bull, this is Adrian Newey. Merc provides all the engines for Aston Martin. Merc also provides engines to Pagani and others. The engine that Pagani use is the same engine that was in Mercs flagship car at one point. This engine is known to propel a car to over 200mph normally aspirated so sticking a couple of turbos on it should give you a but more oomph.

The M120 (which the Pagani uses) isn't really AMG's masterpiece anymore and I doubt this old beast will be used in a new high tech car. The base is from 1992! 24 years old!

I think only Ferrari designs reletive new V12's at the moment, everybody else switched to 3.8-4.0 V8 turbo engines (including Ferrari for their reletive high production models).

The Bugatti project made it quite clear that, even for millions per car, for a small series, you can't completely design an engine from the ground up. Even with 4 VW golf engines bolted together and putting huge turbos on it, it still looses great amounts of cash per car. McLaren did it with a BMW engine, and now with a KERS equipped standard unit, Ferrari tuned its normal production engines and Porsche used its racing V8 as basis.

With the link between AMG and AM, it would be much more logical it would be the 4.0 V8 with electric assistants. At least it's high tech then.

[SR71]

No way in hell would Mercedes use their masterpiece to propel a Red Bull project. Especially one that could breed Red Bull into a competitor a la McLaren.

This isn't Red Bull, this is Adrian Newey. Merc provides all the engines for Aston Martin. Merc also provides engines to Pagani and others. The engine that Pagani use is the same engine that was in Mercs flagship car at one point. This engine is known to propel a car to over 200mph normally aspirated so sticking a couple of turbos on it should give you a but more oomph.

The M120 (which the Pagani uses) isn't really AMG's masterpiece anymore and I doubt this old beast will be used in a new high tech car. The base is from 1992! 24 years old!

I think only Ferrari designs reletive new V12's at the moment, everybody else switched to 3.8-4.0 V8 turbo engines (including Ferrari for their reletive high production models).

The Bugatti project made it quite clear that, even for millions per car, for a small series, you can't completely design an engine from the ground up. Even with 4 VW golf engines bolted together and putting huge turbos on it, it still looses great amounts of cash per car. McLaren did it with a BMW engine, and now with a KERS equipped standard unit, Ferrari tuned its normal production engines and Porsche used its racing V8 as basis.

With the link between AMG and AM, it would be much more logical it would be the 4.0 V8 with electric assistants. At least it's high tech then.

Bugatti Chiron will turn a profit.

Also you cannot really compare a 5 million dollar car to a car that cost under 2 million (veyron, special editions veyron did in fact return a small profit).

[graham.reeds]

The M120 (which the Pagani uses) isn't really AMG's masterpiece anymore and I doubt this old beast will be used in a new high tech car. The base is from 1992! 24 years old!

Engines get improved all the time.

Take Keonigsegg. Started off with a supercharged Ford 4.7l engine. The increased it to 4.8 and the 5.0l. Along the way the superchargers were swapped out for turbos and 3 Yasa motors were added for the hybrid factor.

[PlatinumZealot]

The other problem is that a road car needs to produce MORE downforce than an F1 car to equal it's cornering performance because:

1. It weighs more
2. It's tyres have a lower coefficient of friction

A 700kg F1 car needs 2100kgf of cornering force to make 3G. A 1500kg road car needs 4500kgf. Essentially you need a downforce to weight ratio of at least 1.5 at cornering speeds. The mythical McLaren F1 has a downforce to weight ratio of around 0.4... So they need to be at least three times better than that.

I did a calc earlier today that a 1000kg car needs a Cz of around 8.0 to hit 3G. An F1 car has a Cz of around 2.0-3.0.

A fan car would do the job but the problem is always going to be the tyres. Nothing exists even close to what is required.

Tim.. Your calculations are off because these moden tyres have very high coefficients of friction. The litterally stick to the road.. So you can get 3g's out of a car without 3 times the bodyweight of downforce. In fact... Many cars have zero downforce and easily hit more than 1g in cornering.

[SR71]

Looks like Goodwood was a bit ambitious but July 5 customers will get a preview....

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1104 ... y-5-reveal

[Tim.Wright]

... you can get 3g's out of a car without 3 times the bodyweight of downforce.

You read my post wrong. I said 1.5 times its weight.

Thats was with race tyres too, not road tyres.

[PlatinumZealot]

It is interesting because I think the tyres on the Buggatti Veyron cost more than the typical Formula 1 tyre. I don't have any numbers on how much an F1 tyre cost... but Pirrelli suppliles them for free - hundreds at a time - they can't be that expensive (i relative terms) can they? And lets assume that these Ultra-car tyres are not as regulated, and designed to fade - I can see the cost being less than Veyron tyres somehow..

[SR71]

It is interesting because I think the tyres on the Buggatti Veyron cost more than the typical Formula 1 tyre. I don't have any numbers on how much an F1 tyre cost... but Pirrelli suppliles them for free - hundreds at a time - they can't be that expensive (i relative terms) can they? And lets assume that these Ultra-car tyres are not as regulated, and designed to fade - I can see the cost being less than Veyron tyres somehow..

Tire companies frequently produce one of a kind tires for the hyper/ultra category. Chiron tires will only fit and be spec'd for the performance requirements bugatti requests.


AM/RB will have no problem getting the exact tire they want. This has always been a non-issue in my eyes.

On the note of Pirelli/F1 tires, Pirelli has incentive to cost reduce them as much as possible as its a fixed upfront price for them. Any company producing tires for AM/RB will be able to demand whatever price they'd like (or close given a competitor market) this will also ensure they deliver on the performance they promise. Win/win.

[DiogoBrand]

I have a feeling that Veyron's tyres don't produce as much grip as Formula One tyres.

[domh245]

Given Aston Martin's recent decision to go with Dunlop in the WEC, you've got to wonder if it is a possibility that they'll be the ones supplying the tyres for this hypercar.

Also, surely just by merit of the Veyron's tyres having a tread pattern they won't produce as much grip?

[SR71]

I have a feeling that Veyron's tyres don't produce as much grip as Formula One tyres.

I have a feeling that the engineering spec for an F1 tire and veyron are completely different.

I also have a feeling that both an F1 car and veyron will have different tire requirement than AM/RB's project. Given that all 3 types of cars have different weights and downforce levels.

surely your vast engineering knowledge would lead you to the same OBVIOUS conclusion.

Curious then why make the original statement?