Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[namao]

"No updates for the engine until final races" - ALO

[Tommy Cookers]

With respect I don't think I'm misunderstanding MM i think you are disputing their numbers.
17.1 seconds braking at 120 kW is 2.05 MJ. They claim 840 kJ recovery. That's 41% of the potential. I called that efficiency. Perhaps that's a poor word to use. At other circuits the value has been around 45%.
I don't know how MM arrive at these numbers but I make the assumption they are better informed than I.
Perhaps you could point me at the thread in which this has been covered.

P26 of the TERS thread mentions ......
Wuzak's post (some data from Brembo at Monza) on or just before 12th Sept 15 in this Honda PU thread

[Tommy Cookers]

and here it is (from around p96 I think) ........

@Wuzak: Where did you get your figures from? I mean the amount of energy available for harvesting at each circuit. Logic dictates me that, besides the brake bias (which is mostly corner dependent), if you're dissipating more energy through braking, then there's more to be recovered as well. Obviously braking duration is key here, but 1MJ (which is the number I've seen being mentioned as harvested by the MGU-K over a lap) only takes 8s of braking to be harvested. Even Monza has significantly more than that.

In any case, I was simply contradicting the affirmation that Honda's woes come from the insufficient harvesting from the MGU-K when they have actually been reported to come from the lack of harvesting from the MGU-H.

I had some data from Brembo a year or so ago, posted by a member in another forum, on which I did some calculations.

Anyway, to Monza:

http://www.formula1.brembo.com/schede_c ... ia_eng.pdf

The total braking time at Monza was 6.55s. However, T2 had braking time of 0.70s, but power of only 75kW, so not very much for the MGUK to recover. So if we ignore that, the useful braking time was 5.85s. That would give 702kJ of recovered energy.

You pointed out that Monza's total braking energy for a lap was 117kWh. For Malaysia the total was 258kWh. Braking time in the listed corners was 11.66s, all zones with sufficient power to be able to recover 120kW from the MGUK. Possible MGUK recovery 1399kJ.

http://www.formula1.brembo.com/schede_c ... ia_eng.pdf

Silverstone: 85kWh/7.65s/918kJ
http://www.formula1.brembo.com/schede_c ... na_eng.pdf

Monaco: 127kWh/7.23s/868kJ
http://www.formula1.brembo.com/schede_c ... co_eng.pdf

Hungary: 159kWh/8.55s/1026kJ
http://www.formula1.brembo.com/schede_c ... ia_eng.pdf

Spa: 101kWh/9.3s/1116kJ
http://www.formula1.brembo.com/schede_c ... io_eng.pdf

This lack of generation from the brakes is part of the reason teh cars "lift and coast" at some circuits - so they can extend the time the MGUK is harvesting during braking.

[henry]

Thanks. I appreciate that.

What I gain from wuzak's post is that on most circuits the potential energy from braking is lowish. Often below 1 MJ. I think that that is the best we can say.

That is because I have reviewed the data I have used in the past and have to admit it appears that all the published stuff I've been relying on is tosh.

I am familiar with the Brembo brake identity cards. Unfortunately they have discontinued access to them. But I have copies of some. So I looked at the numbers. For spa 2015 it says braking occurs for 13% of the Lap, around 15 seconds, but adding up the individual braking events it comes to 9.87. A discrepancy of half a mega joule if you're trying to draw a conclusion

Similarly the two Magnetti Marelli sets of data earlier in this thread give two significantly different values for MGU-H self sustain output. ( 60 KW and 40). This is probably at least due to the figures give for percentage WOT. I know the Barcelona figure is wrong because I've sat with a stop watch and measured it.

So the message is "beware of marketing people bearing gifts".

[GoranF1]

Alonso when asked about PU upgrade.
"We will have something by the end of season"

[PlatinumZealot]

The turbo is bigger now.. But the ice is not there yet.

[Andres125sx]

Alonso when asked about PU upgrade.
"We will have something by the end of season"

The optimistic inside me is thinking they have something they don´t want to show too soon. What´s the point to not introduce updates sooner with such a long season?

[fellowhoodlums]

Alonso when asked about PU upgrade.
"We will have something by the end of season"

The optimistic inside me is thinking they have something they don´t want to show too soon. What´s the point to not introduce updates sooner with such a long season?

So frustrating. Timetable obviously shifted because we were led to believe this weekend or Silverstone for PU update and a big token spend.

Sounds to me from reading threads that the preferred update(s) isn't reliable/mature enough when run on the rig.

[techman]

Alonso finally saying that honda engine is ahead of mercedes 2015 engine now. i think we all know that the mercedes 2015 engine was decent, now i think its time mclaren up their game so, at least they can finish ahead of TR regularly.
http://en.f1i.com/news/60976-alonso-hon ... point.html

[diffuser]

Alonso finally saying that honda engine is ahead of mercedes 2015 engine now. i think we all know that the mercedes 2015 engine was decent, now i think its time mclaren up their game so, at least they can finish ahead of TR regularly.
http://en.f1i.com/news/60976-alonso-hon ... point.html

That's not what he said .

"Alonso believes it could be further ahead than Mercedes was at the same point." Then f1i goes and adds thier own interpretation of what Alsonso's "same point" is. We really don't know what Alonso meant by same point. It could be interpretted as Merc started working on th PU in 2011 nd Honda in 2014 so now the Honda PU is at the same level as the Merc in 2014.

Fernado has NEVER driven a Merc so really he has no basis for comparisons. To me this comment was just filler.

[GoranF1]

https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/statu ... 0421810176 Hasegawa confirmes PU upgrade in next couple of races.

[ReoPTy]

https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/statu ... 0421810176
Hasegawa confirmes PU upgrade in next couple of races.

good luck

[Chicane]

Honda poised for next engine upgrades

"We are hopeful that we can introduce some of the upgrades in a couple of races," he explained. "I have already confirmed we see some good elements, so as soon as we are ready we will introduce it."

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda ... es-794396/

[techman]

"If you can imagine we are in our second year, if you see the power we have, the deployment we have and the reliability we have, I don’t think there have been many teams in this position in their second season, maybe Mercedes and we are maybe ahead of Mercedes in the second year.

this is alonso exact quote, so basically he is saying that honda 2016 is equal to mercedes 2015, i cannot see otherwise. all these teams and manufacutures have a good idea about where they are in comparison to power . but alonso still not satisfied as he wants honda to be at mercedes 2016 level.

[godlameroso]

He's not wrong even with the same tires if you compare McLaren to last year's Mercedes they are pretty much even.