Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

[Pierce89]

That lower front element looks similar to what's in use in F1 at the moment which according to some works more as a diffuser than a wing:

If it faces the ground, it most likely acts like a diffuser. In fact, in LMP1, they're called front diffusers...

http://i.imgur.com/OHwYLGY.jpg

c'mon Ben, you know "front diffusers" went out of lmp1 in 2014 when the rules officially allowed adjustable front wings. Your pic even shows the adjustable flaps.They just have to hide 'em inside the front bodywork. Hell on the original r15 Audi got away with a flapped front wing when they were still illegal.

[Andres125sx]

As presented this car is set really high off the ground. Is this an illusion? In terms of aero it's unnecessary and in terms of cg it's bad.
http://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/sites/a ... k=5ptOcBtb

Great, it will be an all road car!

Just kidding obviously, but it actually will have more free height than most SUVs, and even sump guard

[SR71]

As presented this car is set really high off the ground. Is this an illusion? In terms of aero it's unnecessary and in terms of cg it's bad.
http://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/sites/a ... k=5ptOcBtb

1) I think you and others have already stated these may not be final surfaces or something has been omitted for this press preview.

2) if these are final are you really saying something Newey did aero wise is unnecessary? How many championships have your F1 cars won?

Why is every single comment you make always aggressively deriding someone? Apparently unbeknownst to you, this forum is pretty full of engineers or engineering students, with a good grounding in maths and physics. You don't even seem to have a good grounding in reality, much less any engineering or technical category.

If you're going to make a post about how these surfaces don't reflect surfaces shown to customers during a private preview then don't follow it up with a post that nit-picks surfaces shown for a press release.

Also, in general, assume you know less about aero than Adrian Newey, pretty much always.

If you want a real answer:

This car is this high for a few reasons, 1) if you look at the air between the top of the wheel and the wheel arch you'd notice this gap is massive. This means the car is not set at a performance ride height, this would have been an active choice made by the team prior to press release. Why? One can only guess.

2) this car is light years beyond any road car in terms of aero. It's also pushing beyond what LMP1 and F1 are doing. This is something new. Looking at the bottom of the car and trying to judge it without extensive knowledge of how the car is working is pretty pointless.

NO LOTUS is acting like this car is set at Baja truck ride Heights. It's not.

There is at least 50-60mm of ride height to be remove just from suspension settings (which is probably fake for the moment) and at that point it's SAFE to assume the massive amount of DF created by this underbody is worth the small compromise to COG.

Development of performance vehicles is always an excersize of performance trade offs. One for another. Newey has clearly chosen DF over COG. What are the chances Newey has chose wrong? Remember they have unlimited simulation and testing on this car. You HONESTLY think the higher COG hasn't been considered? Its absolutely been simulated and proven to be a non issue.

In fact I'd go as far to say that we will see more HyperCars follow this higher engine placement for maximum ground effect optimization.

We're looking at the new benchmark - if they slammed the engine on the floor it would be just another boring P1/La Ferrari/koenigsegg.

[bhall II]

c'mon Ben, you know "front diffusers" went out of lmp1 in 2014 when the rules officially allowed adjustable front wings. Your pic even shows the adjustable flaps.They just have to hide 'em inside the front bodywork. Hell on the original r15 Audi got away with a flapped front wing when they were still illegal.

Actually, I didn't know that, because I don't follow sports car racing that closely.

Regardless, it doesn't matter what you call them; they still act like diffusers. That's just what happens to an inverted airfoil in ground effect.




EDIT: Meaning downforce is created via suction, not upwash.

[Pierce89]

c'mon Ben, you know "front diffusers" went out of lmp1 in 2014 when the rules officially allowed adjustable front wings. Your pic even shows the adjustable flaps.They just have to hide 'em inside the front bodywork. Hell on the original r15 Audi got away with a flapped front wing when they were still illegal.

Actually, I didn't know that, because I don't follow sports car racing that closely.

Regardless, it doesn't matter what you call them; they still act like diffusers. That's just what happens to an inverted airfoil in ground effect.

http://i.imgur.com/gZLPSWU.png
http://i.imgur.com/RSD5Ill.png

Absolutely, but,to me, once you start adding slot gaps, you also bring in a lot of fluid dynamics that are more "wing" than "diffuser".

[bhall II]

You can call 'em "turbo ecabulators." In fact, I think we should call them "turbo encabulators." But we're still talking about devices that generate suction.

[turbof1]

This is where SR71 was right to point out the "front wing" is like a LMP1 device.

Where he got slightly off is by claiming it's more like a LMP1 device then a F1 device. The reality is that both the "front wing" in F1 and the "splitter/front diffuser" in LMP1 are very similar devices.

It's the endplate discussion all over again. People call the mandatory fence in F1 an endplate, while it technically is not. The real endplate is integrated into the front wing euh... front diffuser? So what I am really saying is:

[DiogoBrand]

Basically a front wing acts like a diffuser and a front diffuser acts like a wing.
That's what I understood.

[SR71]

c'mon Ben, you know "front diffusers" went out of lmp1 in 2014 when the rules officially allowed adjustable front wings. Your pic even shows the adjustable flaps.They just have to hide 'em inside the front bodywork. Hell on the original r15 Audi got away with a flapped front wing when they were still illegal.

Actually, I didn't know that, because I don't follow sports car racing that closely.

Regardless, it doesn't matter what you call them; they still act like diffusers. That's just what happens to an inverted airfoil in ground effect.

http://i.imgur.com/gZLPSWU.png
http://i.imgur.com/RSD5Ill.png

Absolutely, but,to me, once you start adding slot gaps, you also bring in a lot of fluid dynamics that are more "wing" than "diffuser".

It's all fluid dynamics - wings work through fluid dynamics, slot gaps work by fluid dynimcs, multi-element wings use fluid dynamics. If you move through the atmosphere, you're being affected by fluid dynamics.

I think the front wing /diffuser probably generates a lot of downforce on it's own but it's real purpose is to blow or "activate" the two tunnels directly behind it.

The center section of the wing is fairly flat allowing a lot of air to travel under the car and activate the rear tunnels. The curled left and right portion of the front diffuser however is more about helping the "main wing" which is formed by the tunnel and top surfaces between the wheel arches.



The the pink line is the more important air stream as I see it BUT it needs assistance from the front wing to be effective (blue). Without each other this would be pretty standard performing car.

[turbof1]

Basically a front wing acts like a diffuser and a front diffuser acts like a wing.
That's what I understood.

If a front wing is too high off the ground so it cannot utilise ground effect, it's not a diffuser. So be careful, as this is a front wing too:


But this is arguably too a front wing and not a diffuser:


@SR71: the blue flow would probably be a vortex, which would accelerate flow at the underbody, generating downforce. However, that vortex is not a stable one in F1 if I recall. Where do you think the vortex would reach on this car?

[SR71]

@SR71: the blue flow would probably be a vortex, which would accelerate flow at the underbody, generating downforce. However, that vortex is not a stable one in F1 if I recall. Where do you think the vortex would reach on this car?

@TURBO

What I omitted was the flow going over the "hood" area of the car, let's say that flow would have been Orange. To me this car is designed around this main wing. (orange and pink flow).

I think the vortex created by the blue flow creates a curtain helping to keep the pink flow attached to the wing (upper tunnel) surfaces..

But everything is connected and that vortex is also helping the front diffuser be more effective, etc, etc...

I stand by the large wing of the body being the most important piece of the puzzle, everything will be about how to activate and keep this wing functioning over the performance envelope.

[No Lotus]

I think a big fan would had been illegal for a road car. It's certainly a ground effect car though.

I believe the McLaren F1 has a fan that serves to suck off the boundary layer before the rear diffuser.

I thought Newey might do something interesting with a DF fan, like a watered down version of the fan setup on his X2014 VGT concept. The problem is that a fan won't work unless there is effectively no suspension travel. The way to get around that is to combine it with a twin chassis setup which is what I've done with my Lotus. In fact, I have a patent on the concept of a retractable twin chassis - which is the way to achieve ultimate performance, and with the advantage that ride may remain comparatively compliant. Without active downforce generation in the AM-RB 001, my Elise will have no trouble out turning it at the skidpad. With enough bhp in a properly developed design, the same will be true of acceleration from a standstill and out of corners.

[SR71]

I think a big fan would had been illegal for a road car. It's certainly a ground effect car though.

I believe the McLaren F1 has a fan that serves to suck off the boundary layer before the rear diffuser.

I thought Newey might do something interesting with a DF fan, like a watered down version of the fan setup on his X2014 VGT concept. The problem is that a fan won't work unless there is effectively no suspension travel. The way to get around that is to combine it with a twin chassis setup which is what I've done with my Lotus. In fact, I have a patent on the concept of a retractable twin chassis - which is the way to achieve ultimate performance, and with the advantage that ride may remain comparatively compliant. Without active downforce generation in the AM-RB 001, my Elise will have no trouble out turning it at the skidpad. With enough bhp in a properly developed design, the same will be true of acceleration from a standstill and out of corners.
http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/attac ... 1467739432

Nice photo, is your car documented anywhere on the net? I'd love to read more...

[Pierce89]

Actually, I didn't know that, because I don't follow sports car racing that closely.

Regardless, it doesn't matter what you call them; they still act like diffusers. That's just what happens to an inverted airfoil in ground effect.

http://i.imgur.com/gZLPSWU.png
http://i.imgur.com/RSD5Ill.png

Absolutely, but,to me, once you start adding slot gaps, you also bring in a lot of fluid dynamics that are more "wing" than "diffuser".

It's all fluid dynamics - wings work through fluid dynamics, slot gaps work by fluid dynimcs, multi-element wings use fluid dynamics. If you move through the atmosphere, you're being affected by fluid dynamics.

I think the front wing /diffuser probably generates a lot of downforce on it's own but it's real purpose is to blow or "activate" the two tunnels directly behind it.

The center section of the wing is fairly flat allowing a lot of air to travel under the car and activate the rear tunnels. The curled left and right portion of the front diffuser however is more about helping the "main wing" which is formed by the tunnel and top surfaces between the wheel arches.

https://postimg.org/image/brsno9mt3/

The the pink line is the more important air stream as I see it BUT it needs assistance from the front wing to be effective (blue). Without each other this would be pretty standard performing car.

https://postimg.org/image/b8gcf5kgn/

Please, don't ever try to lecture me on aerodynamics. "You know nothing, Jon Snow".

[No Lotus]

I think a big fan would had been illegal for a road car. It's certainly a ground effect car though.

I believe the McLaren F1 has a fan that serves to suck off the boundary layer before the rear diffuser.

I thought Newey might do something interesting with a DF fan, like a watered down version of the fan setup on his X2014 VGT concept. The problem is that a fan won't work unless there is effectively no suspension travel. The way to get around that is to combine it with a twin chassis setup which is what I've done with my Lotus. In fact, I have a patent on the concept of a retractable twin chassis - which is the way to achieve ultimate performance, and with the advantage that ride may remain comparatively compliant. Without active downforce generation in the AM-RB 001, my Elise will have no trouble out turning it at the skidpad. With enough bhp in a properly developed design, the same will be true of acceleration from a standstill and out of corners.
http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/attac ... 1467739432

Nice photo, is your car documented anywhere on the net? I'd love to read more...

Very little on McLarenLife. I've been trying to get a big manufacturer interested in doing a twin chassis hypercar, but they've yet to commit to the project and now due to the downturn in Asia, it doesn't look like they will, at least anytime soon. I'm now proceeding with a more detailed design which I'll show next year.