Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[techman]

STR are running much more wing. On STR, lower part of the rear wing is exposed by about a couple of inches. While Mclaren maybe a 1/2".

if you look at the mercedes f1 team rear wing you will find the lower part of the their rear wing is even less exposed than mclaren, however we can agree, mercedes has more efficient downforce than either mclaren and TR, so basically your argument is wrong. and all mercedes team run monkey wings.

The only time mclaren did run a low wing configuration was baku, and in that race we saw how easily both mclaren overtook the TR on the straight and came close to points, this race is not reallly show the potential because alonso fastest time was pretty decent even better than either TR cars.

I think with more testing a better picture can be seen as some aero parts need to analysed further. i just hope that nexyt year they give out the power index of all then engine so then we can see which teams have the best efficient downforce, TR is up there as we saw in monaco, where they did really well in a chassis circuit and mclaren had bad pace.

[Logie]

That picture shows the install is much neater and tidier then last year.

[amho]

Not bad for No TJI. That's about 40% thermal efficiency. The TJI should help them recover another 4% at least. It should bring honda up to the same peak power at Mercedes. I cannot speak for the average power over the race though.

what is TJI?

[PlatinumZealot]

Turbulent Jet ingition.
A new type of ignition developed by Mahle (the guys who make pistons) and confirmed to be utilized by Ferrari from 2015, and speculated to be utilized by Mercedes since 2014. It is not confirmed whether or not Renault has adapted it. Honda has confirmed that they haven't though.

Look up Mahle Jet ignition in google - read their page to get the low-down.

[godlameroso]

Mercedes is definitely doing something, but we don't know what it is they're doing exactly. What we do know is that it's a clever trick to burn the fuel faster and more thoroughly without detonating. We also know that they have to use a conventional ignition system, in other words a spark plug, no fancy plasma or laser ignition. We also know they burn gasoline that is somewhat similar to the gasoline we use in our cars, but they have quite a bit of leeway. As much as 5% can be biofuel and this 5% is exempt from all the fuel regulations.

The TJI system is a type of stratified charge system where the main air fuel mixture enters the combustion chamber and is ignited by a separate chamber that houses the spark plug and fuel injector.

This isn't the only way to do it, I'm sure Renault has it's own ideas of what needs to be done which has brought them some success, Ferrari is at the mercy of it's supplier, and Honda is still finding it's way. Mercedes on the other hand has probably evaluated multiple systems, found other tricks to synergize with their system and enjoys a comfortable lead on the others.

It would be better to vaporize the gasoline before it enters the combustion chamber instead of atomizing it, and it's certainly possible to do so. Furthermore, to do it effectively without breaking the rules is quite an engineering challenge. The regulations don't forbid vaporizing the fuel before injection, they only forbid cooling the fuel. With 500 bar and some heat I'm sure you could possibly get the fuel in a super critical state before the fuel rail. This is just speculation, I'm sure they just have a very evolved pre chamber ignition.

5.11 Ignition systems :
5.11.1 Ignition is only permitted by means of a single ignition coil and single spark plug per cylinder. No more than five sparks per cylinder per engine cycle are permitted.
The use of plasma, laser or other high frequency ignition techniques is forbidden.
Only approved ignition coils may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
5.11.2 Only conventional spark plugs that function by high tension electrical discharge across an exposed gap are permitted.
Spark plugs are not subject to the materials restrictions described in Articles 5.16 and 5.17.

[Jolle]

Mercedes is definitely doing something, but we don't know what it is they're doing exactly. What we do know is that it's a clever trick to burn the fuel faster and more thoroughly without detonating. We also know that they have to use a conventional ignition system, in other words a spark plug, no fancy plasma or laser ignition. We also know they burn gasoline that is somewhat similar to the gasoline we use in our cars, but they have quite a bit of leeway. As much as 5% can be biofuel and this 5% is exempt from all the fuel regulations.

The TJI system is a type of stratified charge system where the main air fuel mixture enters the combustion chamber and is ignited by a separate chamber that houses the spark plug and fuel injector.

This isn't the only way to do it, I'm sure Renault has it's own ideas of what needs to be done which has brought them some success, Ferrari is at the mercy of it's supplier, and Honda is still finding it's way. Mercedes on the other hand has probably evaluated multiple systems, found other tricks to synergize with their system and enjoys a comfortable lead on the others.

It would be better to vaporize the gasoline before it enters the combustion chamber instead of atomizing it, and it's certainly possible to do so. Furthermore, to do it effectively without breaking the rules is quite an engineering challenge. The regulations don't forbid vaporizing the fuel before injection, they only forbid cooling the fuel. With 500 bar and some heat I'm sure you could possibly get the fuel in a super critical state before the fuel rail. This is just speculation, I'm sure they just have a very evolved pre chamber ignition.

5.11 Ignition systems :
5.11.1 Ignition is only permitted by means of a single ignition coil and single spark plug per cylinder. No more than five sparks per cylinder per engine cycle are permitted.
The use of plasma, laser or other high frequency ignition techniques is forbidden.
Only approved ignition coils may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
5.11.2 Only conventional spark plugs that function by high tension electrical discharge across an exposed gap are permitted.
Spark plugs are not subject to the materials restrictions described in Articles 5.16 and 5.17.

Well, its a whole new way of thinking about racing engines. The whole search for revs that we had for decades is out of the window. The current engines are, compared to the 20k revs of the heydays of the V8's burning very slowly. One of the theories is that the chamber works more like a Diesel engine then an old style racing engine. Mercedes of course has already done a ton on R&D on this for their trucks and road cars and admitted that on the engine side they have worked quite a lot with Stuttgart.
I have the idea that Renault, Ferrari and Honda, on combustion alone, didn't look to much out of the box and went for a conventional racing engine and Mercedes looked at is from an efficiency challenge from the start. Honda of course don't have the extend in diesel R&D as Daimler and I don't think Ferrari and Renault went to their car companies for help.

And, imagine, a company as Mercedes, with all the engine R&D, if all their engineers would work late for a week, they have worked out several complete engines within no-time. This makes it almost impossible for bespoke engine companies (Cosworth, Mugen, etc) to have any chance at all.

[godlameroso]

There was talk of HCCI for a while but people stopped talking about it once it was known what Ferrari was doing, auto-ignition would be nice but I don't think they can do it using gasoline/petrol.

[GoranF1]

Turbulent Jet ingition.
A new type of ignition developed by Mahle (the guys who make pistons) and confirmed to be utilized by Ferrari from 2015, and speculated to be utilized by Mercedes since 2014. It is not confirmed whether or not Renault has adapted it. Honda has confirmed that they haven't though.

Look up Mahle Jet ignition in google - read their page to get the low-down.

Is that the same Mahle that makes filters for most german cars VW, Mercedes.. ..

[Craigy]

Turbulent Jet ingition.
A new type of ignition developed by Mahle (the guys who make pistons) and confirmed to be utilized by Ferrari from 2015, and speculated to be utilized by Mercedes since 2014. It is not confirmed whether or not Renault has adapted it. Honda has confirmed that they haven't though.

Look up Mahle Jet ignition in google - read their page to get the low-down.

Is that the same Mahle that makes filters for most german cars VW, Mercedes.. ..

Mahle supply all 4 of the f1 manufacturers respective road car divisions. No great surprise as they are a major supplier to every big car company.

[PlatinumZealot]

There was talk of HCCI for a while but people stopped talking about it once it was known what Ferrari was doing, auto-ignition would be nice but I don't think they can do it using gasoline/petrol.

Ferrari is not doing auto-ignition. They use TJI.. which is a very precise way to ignite the mixture. The opposite of auto-ignition, which is when the mixture ignites it self.

The TJI is almost the opposite of diesel in how it burns. Diesel combustion steadily propagates outwards from the centre as it burns and is strongly limited by the flame speed. TJI burns almost instantly along radial jets that shoot outward to the edges of the cylinder.

Just airing it out before reader run off into the sunset with misinformation.

[Jef Patat]

Just airing it out before reader run off into the sunset with misinformation.

=D>

[godlameroso]

There was talk of HCCI for a while but people stopped talking about it once it was known what Ferrari was doing, auto-ignition would be nice but I don't think they can do it using gasoline/petrol.

Ferrari is not doing auto-ignition. They use TJI.. which is a very precise way to ignite the mixture. The opposite of auto-ignition, which is when the mixture ignites it self.

The TJI is almost the opposite of diesel in how it burns. Diesel combustion steadily propagates outwards from the centre as it burns and is strongly limited by the flame speed. TJI burns almost instantly along radial jets that shoot outward to the edges of the cylinder.

Just airing it out before reader run off into the sunset with misinformation.

One thing to use a better method for combustion, another to exploit a certain amount of 'knocking' or 'auto ignition'. You don't have to run the car completely off detonation, that's impossible, but you can exploit the properties in small doses, considering that engines run lean with those big honking compressors.

The key to victory is not one component, it's the synergy of various different components and philosophies. If you can get a more complete burn then you can run leaner for a given combustion, you can exploit a small amount of carefully controlled knock to add heat and power for recovery. You have a variable speed compressor with variable ports to deliver air to the engine with a level of precision that a lab technician would envy. The same mgu-h can also control engine back pressure at the same time.

I'm sure the Honda engineers have wrapped their head around all the control they have over the whole combustion process, now comes the fun part of making it better.

[GoranF1]

Ask Hasegawa (series of interview articles where Japanese photographer Mr.Atsuta asks questions collected from the website readers)

bold part is question (mostly from the readers, some from Atsuta himself), non-bolded " " part is Hasegawa quote/answer

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Vol.1
Monaco (2016.05.28)
https://www.as-web.j.../shotsmonacofri

Q. Where do you think is the best circuits for mclaren honda this season?
"At this moment, I think we'll do better at technical circuits after all, so Hungary and Singapore I guess..... But of course we'd like to improve engine power, so please look forward to other tracks too!"

Q. in what sort of situations do you pay utmost care upon working with staffs of various nationalities?
"it's language I reckon. Especially when there are multiple Japanese staff in a group, we tend to speak/use Japanese carelessly, so we are mindful that we speak in English when there are non-Japanese staff."

--- So Honda's Japanese staff have no problem in English?
"Well actually that's the difficult part (laughs). There are certain situations that if we speak in English, some Japanese staff dont understand. So, we have to speak English, but also have to make some Japanese staff understand, so that's what we care about the most."


Q. what was wrong with last year's PU? If you have anything you couldnt reveal back then but can reveal now, please tell us.
"In a nutshell, reliability and power were lacking, it all comes down to that in the end."

---- what was wrong last year has been overcome already?
"no, we are not the no.1 yet so we have long way to go, but obviously it is getting better. As far as reliability is concerned, that we were able to face and solve troubles one by one last year leads to this year. In other words, it's impossible to have this year's result without last year's troubles.

---- well, things dont get better suddenly, do they. You are still having some troubles this year, but those troubles have been sorted out properly?
"In the process of evolving PU, it's not that you continue to use same components/parts. For example, suppose you increase output, the whole new issues arise, like more load/stress on engine block. In that sense, still long way to go. Racing is about chasing both performance and reliability forever......so, still long way to go."

----- you've worked with many drivers in F1, who left strongest impression in you?
"Takuma Sato. That he's the same Japanese is one reason, but he was very aggressive and had talent, and was getting along very well with whole Honda staff which was impressive."

---- any difference between JB and FA in demands towards PU?
"Not much. There are some differences in how to express and frequency, though. Like, JB talks it more mildly, while FA is more aggressive. But when it comes to discussion in meetings, both are very passionate! Well I havent met any driver who say sth like 'that's ok about the performance level' tho (laughs)"




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Ask Hasegawa vol. 2
Canada (2016.06.12)
http://www.as-web.jp.../shotscanadasat


Q. from now on, you are using tokens for considerable improvement in thermal efficiency?
"We will! Now that's the only thing left to do."

Q. Is the layout of placing turbo in the V being hindrance?
"As far as an engine(ICE) as a independent/separate unit is concerned, of course it's hindrance. However, in terms of whether calling it "hindrance" is correct or not, it's not really appropriate. I think it's quite inappropriate to call development within/under restrictions of packaging a hindrance. It goes without saying that you cannot make everything as you want it to be completely freely, and thing is that we chose what we chose."

Q. are the reports that you'll ditch size zero concept for 2017 true?
"we havent decided yet."
Q. Alonso has made it to Q3 consecutively while JB hasnt done yet, any differences in machines? or in drivers speed?
"There is no difference in machine. But naturally the setting is made according to driver preferences, so there is difference in that part. Also circuit preference as well, for example how Alonso was motivated at Barcelona was on different level."

Q. When drivers made mistakes, how do they explain? admit mistake explicitly or make excuses?
"Depends on the degree of the mistake....but basically drivers dont admit mistakes. that's because you cannot be f1 driver unless you are aggressive and confident throughout weekend, I reckon. However, when they couldnt extract all from machine despite having potential, they say sorry honestly. But basically they dont make mistakes (laughs)."



Q. Is participation period defined/limited for this time's f1 project?
"No it's not!"

----- any chance you will withdraw from f1 without winning?
"We want to avoid such thing from happening."

Q. This year's budget is the highest ever?
"I cannot disclose about budget, but in 3rd stage (00s) we were doing chassis as well, so it's not highest right now."

---- How many staffs are involved with PU design?
"I cannot disclose the number. In all honesty that (staff number) equals revealing your force/capability so we do not disclose that."


Q. what is the motto of Honda F1 project?
"fight and win!"



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Ask Hasegawa vol.3
Baku (2016.06.19)
http://www.as-web.jp...ts/shotsbakufri

Q. I guess it's difficult to explain in short, but how much does current F1 machine cost as a whole package? I'd like to know breakdown like prices of steering wheel, pu, tyre etc if possible
"Well, that's impossible to answer -. Rather, we dont really know actually that's one reason. We have so many trial/experimental parts that we cannot determine/know actual cost. Still tho, for instance there is a talk that customer PU cost will be capped at 12milion Euro. That can be one yardstick."

---- Does that mean huge deficit?
"Rather, we try to make things in a way that it will be within that price range."

------ does that mean you can spend double that on R&D for customer PU and make better things to sell and supply?
"No, it's about customer supply, so you supply what you are done about development. Therefore, it's ok to consider it as cost / price tag of the parts."

----- btw, are there anything whose price is already known clearly?
" Well, it includes too much R&D cost, so......I got it, i'll give it a thought, please wait for a while."


Q. I cannot help having high hopes despite fully understanding that it's so difficult to close the gap to top teams within such short period. To put it straightforwardly, how confident are you about achieving first podium after comeback within this season?
"Speaking of confidence, I have none. However i consider there is possibility. As long as you are withing point scoring positions, you have chance. As far as this season is concerned, we are in such level."

Q. I read reports that they are going to limit PU count per season to just 2. That article said "all makers have agreed" but is it true? What do you think of PU count restriction?
"PU count restriction itself is fine in the sense that racing engine is about contending on all aspects including durability. However, as I told at FIA press conference (the friday one) before, the penalty imposed when you lose engine due to trouble is so massive, so it discourages motives of going aggressive, such as by introducing new parts and changing engine drastically. In that sense, it's obstructing competition I reckon."

--- so how many pu a season is appropriate you think?
"imo this year's 5/season is appropriate. Because that makes 1 PU in 4 or 5 races."

------ So it's easier to develop with 5 PUs/season?
"It's still tough.....5 races means 4000km, so it takes good amount of time just to confirm/verify the durability for that mileage. After all I think F1 engine should be pinnacle of technology and about the best performance, but it takes too much time to verify that so it's impossible to make the cycle faster. In that sense, giving/adding even more durability upon current level goes against displaying/achieving the best performance, imo."

-------- it's not endurance engine, is it.
"For example if it becomes just 1 PU a season it's impossible to develop, you cannot pursue performance or anything at all. So I think 5 PU a season is suitable for F1's power unit."


Q. I like F1 very much and aiming to be F1 engineer in future, so could you tell us about what kind of talent/skill is needed at F1 venue. I will take job interview for Honda, so much appreciated if you can give an advice on it.
"What's essential is that you have sincere intention to challenge for technological advancement. First and foremost, acquire and acknowledge both good and proper understanding of technology and challenging spirit."

----------- I guess there are many staff within Honda who wish to work on F1, are there any case where you raise your hand and get appointed?
"Right, it's not completely guaranteed at Honda, but expressing your intention/desire actively by raising your hand by yourself is considered important. If you keep requesting, chance of your wish come true increases."

---- Hasegawa-san conduct interview by yourself?
"I did in the past."

----- Komatsu of Haas used to work together at BAR, right?
"That's right, actually it was me who conducted interview for Komatsu! In BAR era, he wanted to join Honda, also Takuma Sato recommended him, so we did interview for him. He brought CV to UK."

------- What was decisive factor that made you decide to get Komatsu?
"He had such high spirit that he wanted to work for F1 and actually learning vehicle dynamics analysis at british college. Besides, he's good at English as well."

------- He's got promoted to senior position now, could you imagine that at that time?
"I wouldnt think about hiring him unless he had potential to be that good. It has to be kind of person who will be playing the core role in development in future. In fact, he was excellent."

----- How was it like to work with Komatsu?
"Komatsu was on vehicle side and I was on engine side, so did not have so much direct interaction. However he had good reputation from BAR staff, also gained confidence by them a lot. So when he quit BAR, everyone lamented his departure."

------- it would be nice if we have many good talents coming out following Komatsu
"That's right, no doubt it's essential that you are able to understand technology, but at the same time you have to possess considerable challenging spirit in order to work in F1, otherwise it's difficult."

---- Now, please give advice to those who wish to join Honda F1 in future. First of all, study a lot, isnt it?
"Quite (laughs). Raise your knowledge on technology is prerequisite. Then spirit/desire. Want to join Honda, want to do F1, that is. Also English! This is actually quite important."



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Ask Hasegawa vol.4
Baku (2016.07.03)
http://www.as-web.jp...orts/shotsrrfri


(Regarding the component price subject that was promised in earlier Q&A session) One set of exhaust pipes, both left and right exhaust, 3 million yen (about 30,000USD). Exchange to new exhausts every race. Made of inconel. Made by Honda.

Q. Alonso is saying he may retire at the end of next year depending on competitiveness of next year's package, do you feel pressure?
"Yes I do! But regarding whether he'll be retiring or not there is a lot of other various factors like age etc, so... Whatever it is, we'd like to make good car ready. Not only about next year tho, I feel pressure about now."

Q. I read an article that wrote that the amount of electricity Porsche LMP1 generated from ERS during Le Mans 24 race equals 3 months worth electricity consumed in standard model house. How about F1, how much electricity is generated during 1.5~2.0 hours race?
"It's difficult to tell, but harvest amount per lap is set at 2MJ, so suppose it's 70 laps race, it's 140MJ. Whatever it is, amount of energy harvested is so enormous. I will check and tell later..."


Q. This year Mclaren is making good strides from last year compared to other teams. I imagine pu improved let alone chassis, but if there are anything Hasegawa-san changed, like approach to the task, philosophy of development etc, please tell us.
"Basically haven't changed. But in terms of operation, last year it was the first year of participation, so we were focusing on trialing and experimenting various things and improving performance, but this year we are aiming/focusing on finishing races, and targeting Q3. Natural evolution."

Q. I like f1 and watch every race. Right now I'm student of industrial high school, but I dont have friends whom i can talk about F1 with. Seem all my mates are not interested in it much. What do you think should be done to raise popularity of F1? I'm looking forward to the moment when Honda gets victory and celebrated a lot in Japan.
"I wish you talk and explain about F1 with other people to cheer up F1! As an addition, Japanese company called Honda is participating in it means driver is one good contributing factor in raising awareness of F1 in Japan, so I'm holding high expectation on Matsushita. "

Q. Any unexpected (?) good stories regarding FA/JB? I'd like to know their spontaneous character that they would not show much in front of media.
"Alonso is strict in his demand for car and driving but other than that he's very friendly. That's same for JB. They are of nice personality, indeed."


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Ask Hasegawa vol. 05
Britain (2016.07.10)
http://www.as-web.jp...rts/shotsbgpfri

firstly, suppose the amount of electricity consumed at standard house is 300kWh. The amount of electricity generated in one race in F1 is roughly 30kWh, so about 1/10.


------- in FP1, Hasegawa-san was talking to Alonso, what were you talking about?
"I asked about the upgrade"

------- Smiles from you two means you received positive feedback?
"I asked him like, 'in practice you dont run at max power so you cannot know engine output properly, but any particular issues?', then he replied 'well, no problem'. But there was trouble in somewhere else, so I'm concerned about that."


Q. which race was the most impressive so far? Also, which venue are you looking forward to the most for non-racing reasons?
"There are two races, one is melbourne where Alonso had accident, the other being Austria where Button run in 2nd position and finished at 6th. The venue i'm looking forward to is Japan!"


Q. How many ps can be gained from the upgrade that is possible for this year?
" well, we have desire that we'd like to achieve gain of like 0.5sec/lap by the end of the season if possible. It's difficult to give / put it to exact horse power figures of 'xxps' though....."

----- Is that above or below 50ps?
"It's somewhere around that!"



Q. When do you think we'll see MGU-H in production cars?
"hm....., if you dont limit it to Honda, it will be out within 5 years, I reckon."

----- How about specifically Honda?
"No idea (laughs)"

Q. What car you drive currently? I guess it must be Honda car of course..
"Fit (called Jazz outside jp) Hybrid. I was involved with the development of the car, so I drive it so as to examine the longer term issues closely by myself. Color is white. I'd like to drive it as long as possible."

Q Have you tried the new NSX?
"I did at the proving ground. Incredible acceleration!"

---- How about S660?
"oh, i want it. Considering it as one of candidates!"




----------------------------------------------------


This series still continues so there will be vol 6, 7 and beyond, so they are accepting questions indefinitely
I think anyone non-Japanese who have questions to ask for Hasegawa can send email to Mr. Atsuta (email address can be found in any of the link posted above or this one below)
http://www.as-web.jp/f1/17059
He's photographer attending all races so he shud understand English

template as follows:

subject: よしっ、長谷川さんに聞いてみよう！
contents: whatever questions you have for Hasegawa
also put your address, name (whatever nickname if you dont wish your name to be published in the article), age, and sex if you wish to win autographed driver card.
If you dont want the drivers card, just put your nickname is fine (only those who have Japan address must be eligible for the prize, so anyone who's outside japan can just put nickname or even user name of this forum

[GoranF1]

Last post is thanks to Muramassa from A Forums.
Interesting parts on future update... 0.5sec/around 50hp.
Should be enough together whit Mclaren chassis update to jump Williams,FI&TR. by the end of year.

[godlameroso]

If the chassis improves by .3 they'll be at the front of that group, another .5 and they'll be fighting with Red Bull at power tracks(Monza, Spa)