Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

[Tim.Wright]

If the minimum weight was still 600kg do you think anyone would be running a hybrid?

[Andres125sx]

As an engineer/technical enthusiast I see F1 powertrains as an overcomplicated-suboptimal solution forced upon the teams by skyrocketing minimum weight requirements - developed at a completely unsustainable cost for purely commercial reasons which all in all has had a negligible effect on the actual racing.

That's not engineering - it's politics and marketing.

Something I like about this AM-RB tie up is they aren't so attached to this political nonsense. And in effect you can't be if your final target is performance.

Even when I agree to some extent, I see it differently.

Future is electric cars, we don´t know if it will take 5 years, 15 or 25, but sooner or later electric cars will be the standard. With that in mind you can´t wait till last moment to do such a dramatic change from ICEs to electrics because the technology is so different it will take several seasons of development. IMO that´s the only reason for hybrids. They´re not the optimal solution, agree, but they´re the optimal solution to start developing electric systems while battery technology finally evolve enough to match range and weight ratios of ICEs

I see hybrids like a neccessary evil, both for production cars and racing cars, as we know technology is very different between them.

About the fuel restrictions, I hate it, seriously, but I also like the efficiency improvements it has caused. With ICE that much more efficient, the technology being developed might delay electric cars introduction, as fuel consumption (for people) and emissions (for marketing purposes) is the main weapon for electric cars to replace ICEs. If ICEs can improve these two aspects, people will think twice before switching to EVs. I don´t know how much of this technology can be used on production cars tough

[bill shoe]

If the minimum weight was still 600kg do you think anyone would be running a hybrid?

If I'm understanding the question correctly then it can be rephrased like this?--> If I (Mr. Technical Director of team X) had the choice to run 220 lbs lighter but without any hybrid then would I take that option? Answer is definitely yes.

Same aero (probably slightly better due to better packaging and smaller radiators), same tires, a ~650 hp V6 turbo engine, and again 220 lbs less weight!!! On a few tracks like Monza the reduced power would make me a backmarker, but on 80% of the tracks I would run away from the heavy cars due to much better ratios of downforce:weight and tire:weight.

My fuel consumption would probably be at least as good as the heavy cars because my light weight reduces power needed to go thru corners. It may not make for good racing, but the most energy-efficient way to go quicker around a racetrack is to go quicker in the corners rather than the straights. Heavy hybrids only improve efficiency on the straights.

[humble sabot]

Though that's a moot point since that's a non-option, the minimum weights have been increasing because the teams have been obliged to run hybrid systems and several just weren't able to make the minimum with the extra systems on board. In order to balance everyone had to run in the same mass ballpark. Those teams that didn't run hybrids did so during the adaptation phase because they were allowed and they didn't work as well as they do now.

Anyway, the relevance to this car is minor. The engine choice is what it is because it's what they want to do.
I did read a tiny snippet somewhere that quoted Newey as saying they would have gone V10 but it would vibrate too much. I think that might be implying a stressed engine.

[jz11]

If the minimum weight was still 600kg do you think anyone would be running a hybrid?

If I'm understanding the question correctly then it can be rephrased like this?--> If I (Mr. Technical Director of team X) had the choice to run 220 lbs lighter but without any hybrid then would I take that option? Answer is definitely yes.

Same aero (probably slightly better due to better packaging and smaller radiators), same tires, a ~650 hp V6 turbo engine, and again 220 lbs less weight!!! On a few tracks like Monza the reduced power would make me a backmarker, but on 80% of the tracks I would run away from the heavy cars due to much better ratios of downforce:weight and tire:weight.

My fuel consumption would probably be at least as good as the heavy cars because my light weight reduces power needed to go thru corners. It may not make for good racing, but the most energy-efficient way to go quicker around a racetrack is to go quicker in the corners rather than the straights. Heavy hybrids only improve efficiency on the straights.

I think you are dismissing one big aspect of the hybrid system on todays F1 cars - it helps to manage ICE power output, make it more linear - which in turn helps the cars balance and make it driveable, without it you will have big problems coming out of every single corner, which is apparent even today, if you look at footage of corners where camera is stationary, how Mercs are driving like glued to the track and the rest struggle to get all the available power down

[graham.reeds]

Hybrid fuel saving is slightly hypocritical. The F1 circus travels around Europe in 350 articulated lorries.

Anyway we are supposed to be discussing Aston Martin.

Personally I think it will be a good car, but I don't consider it to be an Aston. To me an AM is a luxury tourer, not a hyper car.

[domh245]

Someone on Reddit posted a link to a Red Bull careers page related to the AM-RB001.

Interestingly, one of the jobs is

Automotive Drivetrain integration – including hybridisation

So it looks like it will be a Hybrid vehicle then!

[Jolle]

Someone on Reddit posted a link to a Red Bull careers page related to the AM-RB001.

Interestingly, one of the jobs is

Automotive Drivetrain integration – including hybridisation

So it looks like it will be a Hybrid vehicle then!

The advantages of hybrid technology for hyper performance cars is so obvious that it would be very low tech if a project wouldn't have a hybrid PU system.

[ME4ME]

Someone on Reddit posted a link to a Red Bull careers page related to the AM-RB001.

Interestingly, one of the jobs is

Automotive Drivetrain integration – including hybridisation

So it looks like it will be a Hybrid vehicle then!

Didnt they already mention that reverse gear probably will be electric?

[bill shoe]

The advantages of hybrid technology for hyper performance cars is so obvious that it would be very low tech if a project wouldn't have a hybrid PU system.

I figure we can take a 2012-era 2.4L V-8 with rev-limit and minimum-weight as a useful metric for IC engine performance. This is 750 hp and 100 kg, so 7.5 hp/kg.

Current F1 hybrid stuff is ~ 45 kg for the whole MGU-K/control electronics/battery package, yes? It puts out 200 hp? So then 4.4 hp/kg.

It appears that any hybrid car will need both a multi-gear transmission and a fuel (petrol) tank in order to use any combo of IC and/or electric. For example, all electric power in a hybrid is originally sourced from the petrol unless you’re doing very short trips or add lots of battery weight. In other words it doesn’t make sense to attribute transmission or petrol weights exclusively to one motive type or the other (IC or electric).

If you were Mr. Newey would you achieve your oodles-of-power target by adding more IC at 7.5 hp/kg, or by adding hybridization at 4.4 hp/kg?

So high performance track cars are lighter with IC-only rather than hybrid. Street cars with catalysts and mufflers would be a closer contest. However, the street-legal aspect of Newey’s hyper-car may be fading. They may end up going for more of a “street-type” car that is not actually production-car road-legal in most developed countries.

I can see a mild hybrid unit that replaces the weight of starter, alternator, and reverse gear with a small unit that adds a useful 100 hp for temporary bursts. This type of system justifies its tubby weight by replacing some of the admittedly tubby IC accessories.

[Jolle]

The advantages of hybrid technology for hyper performance cars is so obvious that it would be very low tech if a project wouldn't have a hybrid PU system.

I figure we can take a 2012-era 2.4L V-8 with rev-limit and minimum-weight as a useful metric for IC engine performance. This is 750 hp and 100 kg, so 7.5 hp/kg.

Current F1 hybrid stuff is ~ 45 kg for the whole MGU-K/control electronics/battery package, yes? It puts out 200 hp? So then 4.4 hp/kg.

It appears that any hybrid car will need both a multi-gear transmission and a fuel (petrol) tank in order to use any combo of IC and/or electric. For example, all electric power in a hybrid is originally sourced from the petrol unless you’re doing very short trips or add lots of battery weight. In other words it doesn’t make sense to attribute transmission or petrol weights exclusively to one motive type or the other (IC or electric).

If you were Mr. Newey would you achieve your oodles-of-power target by adding more IC at 7.5 hp/kg, or by adding hybridization at 4.4 hp/kg?

So high performance track cars are lighter with IC-only rather than hybrid. Street cars with catalysts and mufflers would be a closer contest. However, the street-legal aspect of Newey’s hyper-car may be fading. They may end up going for more of a “street-type” car that is not actually production-car road-legal in most developed countries.

I can see a mild hybrid unit that replaces the weight of starter, alternator, and reverse gear with a small unit that adds a useful 100 hp for temporary bursts. This type of system justifies its tubby weight by replacing some of the admittedly tubby IC accessories.

Aha! You added the battery into the equation. It's would be the same to add a full tank of petrol.

Nothing at this moment to improve drivability or a quick 0-100 time then a hybrid solution. Even a high revving v12 with a rediculous small racing flywheel can't beat a electric motor in response. And for that you won't need a 25kg battery pack or a MGU-H. Just a K unit with a small 10kg battery pack. Around 20kg together, 200Hp? 10 HP/kg, including storage.

[Just_a_fan]

The current "state of the art" is to use the electric motor as a torque-fill system i.e. to fill in the places where the petrol engine is not at its best. This gives you the best of both worlds. I doubt they'll use it as a regen system, rather a system topped up when the petrol engine isn't fully loaded - the same as in F1, effectively. It's compact and well known technology now. It also means a lighter battery system.

Compare current hybrid hypercars (from http://www.evo.co.uk/ferrari/laferrari/ ... s-stack-up:

LaFerrari -

The electrical side of the powertrain consists of an ultra-compact Samsung lithium-ion battery pack, situated in the floor and supplying current to a motor mounted behind the transmission and driving the differential directly. A secondary generator, effectively a big alternator, recharges the battery from the engine. The electrical system adds 140kg in weight, the battery being 66kg, yet Ferrari says the car will weigh ‘about 1300kg’ (the Enzo was 1365kg). Total combined power is 950bhp.

P1 -

Unlike Ferrari, McLaren has effectively combined the electric motor with the engine – it sits inside the engine block casing. This means it works via the seven-speed twin-clutch transmission and, unlike the Ferrari, its torque contribution is effectively multiplied by the gearbox. The battery pack is heavier than the Ferrari’s at 96kg and bulkier too – stacked vertically at the back of the passenger compartment. The full electrical system adds a claimed 170kg to the P1’s weight, bringing it up to 1395kg ‘dry’, while the total combined power is 903bhp.

So, the current "best of breed" adds 140-170kg to the weight of the base petrol-engine-only supercar.

[djos]

I figure we can take a 2012-era 2.4L V-8 with rev-limit and minimum-weight as a useful metric for IC engine performance. This is 750 hp and 100 kg, so 7.5 hp/kg.

Current F1 hybrid stuff is ~ 45 kg for the whole MGU-K/control electronics/battery package, yes? It puts out 200 hp? So then 4.4 hp/kg.

It appears that any hybrid car will need both a multi-gear transmission and a fuel (petrol) tank in order to use any combo of IC and/or electric. For example, all electric power in a hybrid is originally sourced from the petrol unless you’re doing very short trips or add lots of battery weight. In other words it doesn’t make sense to attribute transmission or petrol weights exclusively to one motive type or the other (IC or electric).

If you were Mr. Newey would you achieve your oodles-of-power target by adding more IC at 7.5 hp/kg, or by adding hybridization at 4.4 hp/kg?

So high performance track cars are lighter with IC-only rather than hybrid. Street cars with catalysts and mufflers would be a closer contest. However, the street-legal aspect of Newey’s hyper-car may be fading. They may end up going for more of a “street-type” car that is not actually production-car road-legal in most developed countries.

I can see a mild hybrid unit that replaces the weight of starter, alternator, and reverse gear with a small unit that adds a useful 100 hp for temporary bursts. This type of system justifies its tubby weight by replacing some of the admittedly tubby IC accessories.

What are the chances of something a bit more clever ... say ditching the Starter Motor & Heavy SLA battery and having a small MGU integrated into the gear-box with a Mazda SkyActive style Capacitor for storage? It could then start the engine and provide reverse (GB clutch disconnects the ICE while reversing) and you could even use the Capacitor to run electrics etc when stationary (the MGU doesn't provide any Forward drive so small energy reserve isnt wasted).

Thoughts?

[bill shoe]

Around 20kg together, 200Hp? 10 HP/kg, including storage.

You will want these addresses-

http://www.mclaren.com/careers/

http://auto.ferrari.com/en_EN/ongoing-h ... y/careers/

I've started your Letter of Interest for you--

Sir:

I am interested in working with your company. I've recently determined that electric hybrid systems of around 10 HP/kg are quite feasible with current technology, but you continue to persist with supercar hybrid systems that are 5 times as heavy, and with F1 systems that are still 2 times as heavy. I know something that everyone else in your company does not. Specifically...

[bill shoe]

What are the chances of something a bit more clever ... say ditching the Starter Motor & Heavy SLA battery and having a small MGU integrated into the gear-box with a Mazda SkyActive style Capacitor for storage? It could then start the engine and provide reverse (GB clutch disconnects the ICE while reversing) and you could even use the Capacitor to run electrics etc when stationary (the MGU doesn't provide any Forward drive so small energy reserve isnt wasted).

Thoughts?

Seems like a pretty good approach. Only drawback is that batteries may have overtaken SuperCapacitors for energy density and even power density. Could ideally use the MGU mass as part of the flywheel mass?

All current (pun, ha-ha) hybrid systems are there for some kind of rule compliance, whether it's an emissions legality thing, or an F1 technical regulation thing. It's interesting to ponder the role of hybrid in an uncompromised unregulated performance car.