Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Sasha]

Force India has a history with Mclaren.

Szafnauer has history with key Honda F1 people.(HRD and Honda R&D bosses from his days at BAR and Honda F1)

[gruntguru]

You might for harvesting though.

Not necessary. Much more efficient to generate using the piston engine driving the MGUK.

If you're time limited under braking you'll take what you can get I'd imagine. There's only so much your K will be able to capture.

Allow me to elaborate. If you need harvesting desperately - to the point where you are prepared to waste some fuel to convert into electricity, you get more value from running the ICE at a higher output than you need at the wheels and harvesting the surplus with the MGUK, rather than hot blowing.

[Brian Coat]

Not necessary. Much more efficient to generate using the piston engine driving the MGUK.

If you're time limited under braking you'll take what you can get I'd imagine. There's only so much your K will be able to capture.

Allow me to elaborate. If you need harvesting desperately - to the point where you are prepared to waste some fuel to convert into electricity, you get more value from running the ICE at a higher output than you need at the wheels and harvesting the surplus with the MGUK, rather than hot blowing.

Unless I misunderstand, PhillipM may have already anticipated this elaboration when he wrote "... under braking ... there's only so much your K will be able to capture." So if you are "maxing out" on K and *if* you are struggling for ES recharge, you must turn to the different strategies for increasing the enthalpy flowing into the H, which include using the ICE in an efficient running mode. But under hard decel. , even with cylinder cut, this could sometimes cause the unwanted 'side effect' of undemanded driveshaft torque, which then has to be mitigated. Under these circumstances you might consider ... as a "battery charger of last resort" ... hot blowing the MGU-H?

[PhillipM]

Indeed, you may also be at the limit of what your K will physically recover through size/heat limitations. You don't want to waste vital 'free' time under braking for recovery so you take what you can get. Even with inefficiencies that lead to worse fuel consumption, as it's more efficient to regen and use that power on corner exit than it is to burn the fuel further down the straight.

I do believe that is what Honda are having to do at the moment to solve their deployment on occasion - because it matches perfectly with the trouble they've been have with fuel consumption and end of straight speeds even though they get great drive until mid-way down the straight - plus the much different noise on overrun compared to anyone else that occurs at certain circuits.

[Joseki]

???? The latest Japanese Autosport Magazine show a picture of car # 27 with a big H on the nose????

Will that happen next year?

Do you have any photo?

[FW17]

Not necessary. Much more efficient to generate using the piston engine driving the MGUK.

If you're time limited under braking you'll take what you can get I'd imagine. There's only so much your K will be able to capture.

Allow me to elaborate. If you need harvesting desperately - to the point where you are prepared to waste some fuel to convert into electricity, you get more value from running the ICE at a higher output than you need at the wheels and harvesting the surplus with the MGUK, rather than hot blowing.

1) Cold blowing does not require fuel. If you can harvest or keep the turbo spooled into a corner why not use it?

2) Hot Blowing - It the turbine is more efficient that the IC engine why not use hot blowing?

In qualifying there is a lot of talk that waste gate is run open and MGUH is in motor mode running the compressor which I see is less probable running the turbine with hot blowing to bridge the gap between self sustaining power and max 120KW generation. 4 MJ is not sufficient for running K and H in motor mode for entire lap max possible will be 15-20 seconds.

So how much experience has Honda got in blowing after missing 4 Years of development?

[SameSame]

What difference is there in terms of the flow enrgy that the turbine extracts between hot and cold blowing? Sure the internal engery of the flow will increase because of the additional heat added, but will the flow energy increase by an amount that is worth the extra fuel?

[Far]

I see the on-board race in the Alonso McL and the engine rpm reach 12500 rpm almost in every gear and when the rpm where close to 11800 rpm the engine make a pick or surge of power like the tires just lost grip.the motoGP Honda used to have the same problem a few years ago. The Mercedes never hit more than 11400 rpm and the rpm climb gentle to the top. the McL now dont lose speed like last year a the end of the straight when they were at 300 km/h and go to 280 km/h when they run out of electric power.

[diffuser]

What difference is there in terms of the flow enrgy that the turbine extracts between hot and cold blowing? Sure the internal engery of the flow will increase because of the additional heat added, but will the flow energy increase by an amount that is worth the extra fuel?

This is all a little confusing to me ...
So cold blowing would be the pressure created by pistons when downshifting? This pressure spins the turbine and therefore the MGU-H and creates electricity?

I've blown my share of hot air but yet have no idea what hot blowing is.....unless it's just normal use.

[PlatinumZealot]

I think you guys are going off topic. And anyway, cold blowing and Hot blowing were done for aerodynamic reasons and both are big waste of precious fuel. RedBull used up to 20kg more fuel per race to hot blow in 2011. You would have to be very unwise to waste fuel energy like that to charge the batteries.

[SameSame]

What difference is there in terms of the flow enrgy that the turbine extracts between hot and cold blowing? Sure the internal engery of the flow will increase because of the additional heat added, but will the flow energy increase by an amount that is worth the extra fuel?

This is all a little confusing to me ...
So cold blowing would be the pressure created by pistons when downshifting? This pressure spins the turbine and therefore the MGU-H and creates electricity?

I've blown my share of hot air but yet have no idea what hot blowing is.....unless it's just normal use.

To keep it on topic, do/did Honda use hot blowing based on those off throttle sounds as said above?

Well thats how I understand cold blowing too. Hot blowing (as I understand it and could be completely wrong) is when off throttle and braking the ICE is still combusting fuel to add more energy to the flow/exhaust gas. Was asking if Honda maybe did this to improve MGU-H harvesting. Seeing as internal energy is useless to a turbine (I think?), would hot blowing increase the flow energy which the turbine can use. I know it's a waste of fuel but perhaps they could use it in qualifying on tracks like Baku for example?

Edit: Assuming air as ideal gas

[diffuser]

I think you guys are going off topic. And anyway, cold blowing and Hot blowing were done for aerodynamic reasons and both are big waste of precious fuel. RedBull used up to 20kg more fuel per race to hot blow in 2011. You would have to be very unwise to waste fuel energy like that to charge the batteries.

I think they were using the old terms for new meaning. Hot and cold blowing to generate electrical power not downforce. So in that sense we on topic.

[gruntguru]

1. "Cold blowing"? If that means using air pumped through the ICE under braking/decel', all the teams would be using it - IF - there is enough energy in that cold air to enable useful power in the turbine.

2. ". . . if the turbine is more efficient than the ICE". That is never the case.

3. "Genset mode" (the efficient alternative to hot blowing) would be enabled whenever the power required to the wheels is less than the maximum output of the ICE but greater than minus-120 kW. (below minus-120 you are in "regen braking mode". There are many seconds per lap when the power requirement falls in this category, so adding the energy available from regen and genset modes, it will always be possible to exceed the per-lap storage limit. So I repeat, hot blowing is an inefficient, unlikely scenario.

[sosic2121]

I think you guys are going off topic. And anyway, cold blowing and Hot blowing were done for aerodynamic reasons and both are big waste of precious fuel. RedBull used up to 20kg more fuel per race to hot blow in 2011. You would have to be very unwise to waste fuel energy like that to charge the batteries.

I think only during hot blowing is engine using fuel. Cold blowing should be "free".

[sosic2121]

1. "Cold blowing"? If that means using air pumped through the ICE under braking/decel', all the teams would be using it - IF - there is enough energy in that cold air to enable useful power in the turbine.

2. ". . . if the turbine is more efficient than the ICE". That is never the case.

3. "Genset mode" (the efficient alternative to hot blowing) would be enabled whenever the power required to the wheels is less than the maximum output of the ICE but greater than minus-120 kW. (below minus-120 you are in "regen braking mode". There are many seconds per lap when the power requirement falls in this category, so adding the energy available from regen and genset modes, it will always be possible to exceed the per-lap storage limit. So I repeat, hot blowing is an inefficient, unlikely scenario.

first, all you said is true, but...

1. According to my source (for v8) there is still 75% of the exhaust pressure compering to full throttle.

2. Cold blowing is using waste energy

3. Rules allow for 4MJ to be harvest during a lap, but only 2MJ can come from MGU-K.
So, to harvest other 2MJ MGU-H has to harvest somewhere.