Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

In my view there is more than enough energy to go around so there is no need to hot or cold blow.

Remember the KERS is limited to 2MJ per lap there is no variable valve timing. Fuel energy is more precious than battery energy because one you can recharge the other you cant! The teams won't burn fuel only to charge the batteries. They just wont!

What you have is lift and coast and "overboost control" where excess energy is taken any chance excess boost is produced. In braking, in the corners, exiting corners all these opportunities are used. Remember ultra lean running requires more compressor work, and more compressor work requires more turbine work this needs more heat and flow... sort of a cycle right? Anyway lift and coast is free kinetic energy and free air-flow from the pistons which case the engine is now an air pump turning the turbines and charging the mguh.

In this efficiency formula the objective is to avoiding wasting energy.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

taperoo2k
taperoo2k
14
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 17:33

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

You have to extract the most amount of energy out of the fuel in the most efficient way you can. Wasting fuel isn't really an option in this formula, if you mess around trying to do clever tricks with the fuel you run the risk of miscalculating the fuel load for a race, then either run out of fuel before the finish line or not have enough in the tank for post race weigh ins and fuel sampling.

gruntguru
gruntguru
566
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:In my view there is more than enough energy to go around so there is no need to hot or cold blow.

Remember the KERS is limited to 2MJ per lap there is no variable valve timing. Fuel energy is more precious than battery energy because one you can recharge the other you cant! The teams won't burn fuel only to charge the batteries. They just wont!

What you have is lift and coast and "overboost control" where excess energy is taken any chance excess boost is produced. In braking, in the corners, exiting corners all these opportunities are used. Remember ultra lean running requires more compressor work, and more compressor work requires more turbine work this needs more heat and flow... sort of a cycle right? Anyway lift and coast is free kinetic energy and free air-flow from the pistons which case the engine is now an air pump turning the turbines and charging the mguh.

In this efficiency formula the objective is to avoiding wasting energy.
Good post except for a couple of points:
- If there was no race fuel limit you would see a lot of fuel burnt to charge batteries. On some tracks the race fuel limit is a less severe imposition - therefore . . .
- When the throttle is initially "lifted" there might be a small amount of kinetic energy in the turbo to be harvested by the MGUH. During coast there will not be any useful MGUH harvesting - lift and coast is all about the MGUK.
je suis charlie

wuzak
wuzak
467
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Pierce89 wrote:
wuzak wrote:
sosic2121 wrote:3. Rules allow for 4MJ to be harvest during a lap, but only 2MJ can come from MGU-K.
So, to harvest other 2MJ MGU-H has to harvest somewhere.
That'd be every time the rain light starts flashing at the end of straights. That indicates that the MGUH has stopped pumping electricity straight to the MGUK and is now storing it in the ES.
Nope it denotes that the MGU-K goes from motoring to generating.

Certainly the MGUK is not motoring any more, and there is harvesting happening.

I still maintain that it is the MGUH harvesting, especially since it happens at the end of straights but not in the braking zones.

taperoo2k
taperoo2k
14
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 17:33

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

gruntguru wrote:
In this efficiency formula the objective is to avoiding wasting energy.
Good post except for a couple of points:
- If there was no race fuel limit you would see a lot of fuel burnt to charge batteries. On some tracks the race fuel limit is a less severe imposition - therefore . . . [/quote]

That's the whole point of the fuel flow limit, to force manufacturers to aim for the best efficiency as possible from the fuel flow limit. If there was no fuel flow limit ? You'd likely see strategic use of fuel at certain points during a race to gain track position, you'd not want to burn fuel too much, as you'd have to factor in the reliability of the ICE aka may wear it out sooner by burning fuel more often even with fine tuned engine maps. They would still have to have enough fuel in the tank for the post race weigh in and fuel samples. So it's a bit of a moot point for the time being, things may change with the next set of engine regs. Fuel flow limits will probably change, anyone's guess as to that being an increase or decrease in the fuel flow rates.

User avatar
Pierce89
60
Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

wuzak wrote:
Pierce89 wrote:
wuzak wrote:
That'd be every time the rain light starts flashing at the end of straights. That indicates that the MGUH has stopped pumping electricity straight to the MGUK and is now storing it in the ES.
Nope it denotes that the MGU-K goes from motoring to generating.

Certainly the MGUK is not motoring any more, and there is harvesting happening.

I still maintain that it is the MGUH harvesting, especially since it happens at the end of straights but not in the braking zones.
Exactly, it blinks any time the throttle is floored but the Mgu-K isn't motoring.
As an aside the mgu-h will be harvesting all through any extended full throttle(like a straight), not just the end.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

Brian Coat
Brian Coat
99
Joined: 16 Jun 2012, 18:42

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

"Genset Mode" - I rather like that!

"Some tuning of spark advance can increase this proportion at a small cost to efficiency. This is far better than outright "hot blowing" where fuel is burned to generate exhaust energy alone." Yes.

It seems to me, the unknown factor is precisely how desperate the less competitive PU teams are to charge up their batteries.

I doubt any of this is worrying Merc too much.

Frank_
Frank_
1
Joined: 29 Jun 2014, 11:59

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

gruntguru wrote: 1. No chance of back-pressure being 75% with no combustion. Even if the throttles are kept wide open and the fuel cut. All the turbine energy will be consumed by the compressor and even that won't be enough to maintain boost. (Think turbocharged diesel engine at max rpm downhill then cut the fuel - the turbo spools down immediately).
my cruising boost drops by about 2/3rds on my van when i lift (throttleplate deleted) so maybe some residual heat, or just airflow powering the turbine ? (or maybe the injector durations are > 0 ms on lift)

GoranF1
GoranF1
155
Joined: 16 Dec 2014, 12:53
Location: Zagreb,Croatia

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Calm before storm....in this thread. :wink:
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

User avatar
godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

This is good, over the last two years, the more they talk about updates, and closing the gap, and that they have enough power to rival such and such, usually means nothing. It's when they quietly do things that I know they're making actual progress. I'm guessing because all their attention is focused on technical matters. Like my teacher used to tell me "If you have time to talk, you must have nothing to do....'
Saishū kōnā

User avatar
Craigy
84
Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 10:20

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

godlameroso wrote:This is good, over the last two years, the more they talk about updates, and closing the gap, and that they have enough power to rival such and such, usually means nothing. It's when they quietly do things that I know they're making actual progress. I'm guessing because all their attention is focused on technical matters. Like my teacher used to tell me "If you have time to talk, you must have nothing to do....'
Do the engine manufacturers have a shutdown over the summer for a few weeks as well as the teams?
I think they count as competitors, so would be quiet due to being locked out of the factory.

From the F1 2016 Sporting Regulations at http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110:

Article 21.8 (bold emphasis mine)
21.8 All competitors must observe a shutdown period of fourteen consecutive days during the time that two consecutive Events are separated by at least twenty four days during the months of July and/or August. If two consecutive Events during this period are separated by only seventeen days a shutdown period of thirteen consecutive days must be observed. In either case competitors should notify the FIA of their intended shutdown period within 30 days of the start of the championship season.
During the shutdown period no team or affiliate to a team may carry out or instruct a third party supplier to carry out any of the following activities for or on behalf of the team :
a) Operation or use of any wind tunnel (excluding any service and maintenance activity).
b) Operation or use of any computer resource for Restricted CFD Simulations (excluding any service and maintenance activity).
c) Production or development of wind tunnel parts, car parts, test parts or tooling.
d) Sub-assembly of car parts or assembly of cars.
e) Any work activity by any employee, consultant or sub-contractor engaged in design, development or production (excluding any work activity to be undertaken at the race track in preparation for the Event immediately following the shutdown period).
Each competitor must notify its suppliers of the dates of its shutdown period and must not enter into any agreement or arrangement with the intention of circumventing the prohibition on the above activities.
21.9 During the shutdown period the following activities will not be considered a breach of the above :
a) Repairs carried out with the agreement of the FIA to a car seriously damaged during the Event preceding the shutdown period.
b) The assembly and servicing of running or static show cars, none of which may entail the production, assembly or servicing of any current car parts.
c) The operation and use of any wind tunnel or computer resource for Restricted CFD Simulations provided this is being carried out for projects with no direct relation to Formula One or for or on behalf of a competitor that is not at that time within its own shutdown period.
d) Any activity the sole purpose of which is supporting projects unconnected to Formula One, subject to the written approval from the FIA.
e) Any activity in relation to the power unit as defined in Article 23.4(e).
Article 23.4 [provided for completeness as it's referred to above]
23.4 a) Unless he drives for more than one team (see 23.4(g) below), and subject to the additions described in b) and c) below, each driver may use no more than four power units during a Championship season.
b) With the consent of (and at the sole discretion of) the FIA, the number in a) above will be increased by one for any driver using a power unit provided by a manufacturer or supplier taking part in their first Championship season.
c) The number in a) above will also be increased by one if the number of Events, as scheduled at the start of the first Event of the Championship, exceeds 20.
d) If b) or c) above apply the numbers in e) and f) below will be amended accordingly.
e) For the purposes of this Article 23.4 the power unit will be deemed to comprise six separate elements, the engine (ICE), the motor generator unit-kinetic (MGU-K), the motor generator unit-heat (MGU-H), the energy store (ES), turbocharger (TC) and control electronics (CE). Each driver will therefore be permitted to use four of each of the above six components during a Championship season and any combination of them may be fitted to a car at any one time.

User avatar
godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Maybe I'm being pedantic but I see nothing restricting the development of power units

a) Operation or use of any wind tunnel (excluding any service and maintenance activity).
b) Operation or use of any computer resource for Restricted CFD Simulations (excluding any service and maintenance activity).
c) Production or development of wind tunnel parts, car parts, test parts or tooling.
d) Sub-assembly of car parts or assembly of cars.
e) Any work activity by any employee, consultant or sub-contractor engaged in design, development or production (excluding any work activity to be undertaken at the race track in preparation for the Event immediately following the shutdown period).
Each competitor must notify its suppliers of the dates of its shutdown period and must not enter into any agreement or arrangement with the intention of circumventing the prohibition on the above activities.

Not to mention, they've been working on this for a while now, since around the Barcelona race. Whatever it is exactly that they're working on I'm sure it's at decently evolved stage. I mean they plan to introduce the update in no more than 5 weeks from now, or whenever Monza is. Last I heard they were verifying the update's reliability and finalizing things before they sign off on it.

Regardless, this is much better than over promising and under delivering, let the results speak on track. No one is expecting McLaren to overtake Mercedes this year, or to win races for that matter, what people want to see is progress. McLaren started out on the cusp of making it into Q3, to firmly entrenched in Q3, to matching the best of the mid-pack runners. Now the goal should be to overtake the mid-pack and start nibbling at the heels of the lead pack. We know McLaren can develop a car, we know they have the brains and engineering to respond quickly, we know Honda is improving the power unit and next year they have a much bigger scope for improvement. It's only a matter of time before they're up there, as long as we see progress we can accept the ultimate expectations that are being laid out by McLaren.

There are still 9 races to go, and two more engines with which to introduce upgrades. I said at the beginning of the year that they'd be scoring points regularly, making it firmly to Q3 by Silverstone and be able to score podiums by the end of the season. So far so good.
Saishū kōnā

User avatar
Craigy
84
Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 10:20

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Just to finish this, I found this article http://www.mobil1thegrid.com/article/f1 ... rens-move/ which is from 2015, and specifically states that the shutdown is not applied to the engine manufacturers... so Honda are likely still hard at work.

Sorry for the confusion. I thought it was a pretty interesting question.

ESPImperium
ESPImperium
64
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Honda, Mercedes HPP, Ferrari Engnes and Renault Viry are all still working hard over the summer shutdown. Most will have their first development of their 2017 power unit on the dyno during the break as well. Id expect any early developments that are good and proven to be brought forward if they can be brought forward to the end of this seasons work as it all snowballs into 2017.

Id expect this engine to score its first podium and possibly a win if the weather and track are together for the McLaren-Honda package. Force India and Williams are looking over their shoulder right now, and if a Mercedes powered team, let alone two are looking back to McLaren in the Constructors table, this is good news and says to me people in the paddock will be looking for a Honda deal in the next 12 months or so. I think Honda are going to be on the front foot in the next year or so.

User avatar
godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

I see them dicing with Ferrari from Suzuka onward, I don't think they'll have a car that can fight for a podium or win on merit. Maybe if the front runners have an incident or make a mistake they can snatch a lucky podium. Whatever Honda introduce won't be optimized, they don't have enough tokens to introduce the upgrade they way they want to. Their hand is kind of forced, so while they are seeing gains on the dyno, and I'm sure it'll be enough to clear them from the mid-pack, I'm not so sure it'll be enough for a podium. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the look on Alonso or Button's face fighting for and getting a podium, but the realist in me will keep me from getting too bummed if it doesn't happen.
Saishū kōnā