2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

[bhall II]

If all they were doing was accelerating and braking in straight lines, it would be true.

Just an example of how cornering performance is strongly affected by driveability...

[Juzh]

That's another thing they've (still) got worked out the best. Obviously.

But this season, and especially since Canada, we cannot say the engine is the reason for Mercedes success.
Their chassis and aero lead the field, in particular how they correlate with tyre usage.

PU was the biggest differentiator in baku. Other venues less so.

[FoxHound]

If all they were doing was accelerating and braking in straight lines, it would be true.

Just an example of how cornering performance is strongly affected by driveability...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_Ka9NcB6f4

Your example is from 2014, and still does not answer the question mark surrounding Mercedes "driveability" on the grid from starts. We've seen wheel spin, super early shifts etc from the Merc boys and they still get bogged down consistently.
Whereas we've seen the competing teams get away far more cleanly, specifically Red Bull. To me this indicates an advantage to Red Bull at lower speeds.

Note that I'm not suggesting driveability is mutually exclusive to tyre usage, I'm saying the chassis and aero play a bigger part in 2016 than driveability does.
If you disagree there, then by all means show me the light.

[SR71]

If all they were doing was accelerating and braking in straight lines, it would be true.

Just an example of how cornering performance is strongly affected by driveability...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_Ka9NcB6f4

Your example is from 2014, and still does not answer the question mark surrounding Mercedes "driveability" on the grid from starts. We've seen wheel spin, super early shifts etc from the Merc boys and they still get bogged down consistently.
Whereas we've seen the competing teams get away far more cleanly, specifically Red Bull. To me this indicates an advantage to Red Bull at lower speeds.

Note that I'm not suggesting driveability is mutually exclusive to tyre usage, I'm saying the chassis and aero play a bigger part in 2016 than driveability does.
If you disagree there, then by all means show me the light.

You're honestly comparing accelaration out of slow speed corners and accelaration from a standing start using a multiple clutch procedure to determine who has the best slow speed accelaration overall? Absurd.

Starts are starts. merc has has as many clean fast starts as anyone else. Look at ferrari in Canada, why doesn't that happen every time if 'starts' are so accurate for predicting slow speed performance?

[Jolle]

If all they were doing was accelerating and braking in straight lines, it would be true.

Just an example of how cornering performance is strongly affected by driveability...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_Ka9NcB6f4

Your example is from 2014, and still does not answer the question mark surrounding Mercedes "driveability" on the grid from starts. We've seen wheel spin, super early shifts etc from the Merc boys and they still get bogged down consistently.
Whereas we've seen the competing teams get away far more cleanly, specifically Red Bull. To me this indicates an advantage to Red Bull at lower speeds.

Note that I'm not suggesting driveability is mutually exclusive to tyre usage, I'm saying the chassis and aero play a bigger part in 2016 than driveability does.
If you disagree there, then by all means show me the light.

The slower starts of the Mercedes' has got more to do with the longer first gear then their direct opponents and therefore more strain on the clutch then the drivability in general, which looks very good on both cars

[bhall II]

Dimensions will change, and they will get harder. But just as before the change in hardness will be just re-branding existing compounds. by that I mean next years ulta softs will be this years softs. They won't be making any changes to the core or belts, and that is where performance can be found as well as issues.

What makes you say that? Wear and degradation aren't the same thing.

Wear is what happens as rubber is physically removed from a tire due to slip, and its impact on "grip" is relatively minor. Degradation is what happens as the heat generated by repeated cycles of deformation and recovery fundamentally alters the chemical nature of the rubber, and its impact on both "grip" and wear is profound.

If Pirelli is set to shelve "designed-to-degrade" tires, then, by definition, they intend to introduce new compounds and constructions. (Whether or not they succeed is an entirely different matter.)

Your example is from 2014...

I know. I didn't intend for it to be anything more than a vivid illustration of how driveability affects handling.

With regard to Mercedes' poor starts, that's a clutch issue, which has no effect on driveability after the car is up to speed.

Again, I'm not making any qualitative comparisons here one way or the other. I'm mostly just trying to point out the logical fallacy in your argument.

1. If W07 is a superior chassis, then it will demonstrate superior tire use. (True.)
2. W07 demonstrates superior tire use. (Also true.)
3. Therefore, W07 is a superior chassis.

1. If Zeus were a real, historical figure, but the Illuminati covered up his existence, then we wouldn’t have any evidence of a historical Zeus today. (True.)
2. We don’t have any evidence of a historical Zeus today. (Also true.)
3. Therefore, Zeus was a real, historical figure, but the Illuminati covered up his existence.

See what I mean?

[FoxHound]

The slower starts of the Mercedes' has got more to do with the longer first gear then their direct opponents and therefore more strain on the clutch then the drivability in general, which looks very good on both cars

You and Ben have both pointed to the clutch being an issue.

1. If W07 is a superior chassis, then it will demonstrate superior tire use. (True.)
2. W07 demonstrates superior tire use. (Also true.)
3. Therefore, W07 is a superior chassis.

1. If Zeus were a real, historical figure, but the Illuminati covered up his existence, then we wouldn’t have any evidence of a historical Zeus today. (True.)
2. We don’t have any evidence of a historical Zeus today. (Also true.)
3. Therefore, Zeus was a real, historical figure, but the Illuminati covered up his existence.

See what I mean?

1. If W07 Demonstrates poor starts, it could not possibly be anything to do with driveability, only a clutch issue.
2. Clutch issue will only affect them at the start of every race, but never during or out of slow corners(one of W07's strengths oddly.)
3. Problem solved(perhaps not).

Contortions can be made anywhere anytime...I know, I'm in the middle of a physics dissertation on consciousness.

But, there is something in what Jolle wrote that had me thinking.

Do Mercedes have a longer first gear? And what are the implications of having the longer first gear for the rest of the transmission ratios?
Because ratios will have a direct influence of driveability. If it means Mercedes can run other gears closer, because of the longer first, this in itself will have massive implications on how driveable the car is through the rest of the gears.

It should also be mentioned teams chose their own ratios and are locked into those for the season.
https://www.formula1.com/en/championshi ... arbox.html

[Juzh]

Mercedes do in fact have a longer first gear (analysed by Hollus at season start), but you're going too deep into this issue. I highly doubt merc would mess up ratios to such a degree it would by definiton made them worse at starting off the line. As we've seen in 2014 and williams/merc example, gear ratios have little to no proper meaning anymore.

Check out this hamilton start in china:
https://youtu.be/ChTPzkW9VQo?t=5s

Not so shabby eh?

[ME4ME]

I very much doubt Mercedes long first gear is the major factor which affects the quality of starts Mercedes are having. Gear ratios are set in stone for the season, yet Mercedes has had great starts at occations. Also Rosbergs latest getaway was struck by wheelspin in 3rd gear, rather than first gear.

[bhall II]

Contortions can be made anywhere anytime...

Mercedes is working with parent company Daimler on hardware changes to its clutch in a bid to get on top of its troubled starts so far this year.

EDIT: When I hyperlink something in the middle of a sentence, does it not show up? I ask because I do it often, but it seems like they're frequently missed.

Do Mercedes have a longer first gear?

I have no idea. A longer first gear would make it easier to control wheelspin, because the smaller reduction would mean torque isn't multiplied as much. However, it would also give up leverage.

[Jolle]

I very much doubt Mercedes long first gear is the major factor which affects the quality of starts Mercedes are having. Gear ratios are set in stone for the season, yet Mercedes has had great starts at occations. Also Rosbergs latest getaway was struck by wheelspin in 3rd gear, rather than first gear.

A longer first gear doesn't make a good start impossible but because you use the clutch a bit more, more prone to mistakes.

But it's got nothing to do with the drivability for the 310 km following the start.

[Jolle]

Contortions can be made anywhere anytime...

Mercedes is working with parent company Daimler on hardware changes to its clutch in a bid to get on top of its troubled starts so far this year.

EDIT: When I hyperlink something in the middle of a sentence, does it not show up? I ask because I do it often, but it seems like they're frequently missed.

Do Mercedes have a longer first gear?

I have no idea. A longer first gear would make it easier to control wheelspin, because the smaller reduction would mean torque isn't multiplied as much. However, it would also give up leverage.

A longer first gear is like driving off in second or third in your road car. If you have excess power, not much slower, but more difficult then in first.

[dans79]

Check out this hamilton start in china:
https://youtu.be/ChTPzkW9VQo?t=5s

Not so shabby eh?

If anything, I would say Mercs issue is that the clutch is very temperature sensitive. Lewis was the last to box up, so sitting on the grid should have almost no effect on his clutch, hence the reason he got such a good launch.

[bhall II]

A longer first gear is like driving off in second or third in your road car...

...making it easier to control wheelspin, because the smaller gear reduction sends less power to the drive wheels.

[Jolle]

A longer first gear is like driving off in second or third in your road car...

...making it easier to control wheelspin, because the smaller gear reduction sends less power to the drive wheels.

Well, just try it out yourself. Especially when your car is a turbo, it's much easier to have a good launch in first then in second. (Or do you drive an automatic?)