Honda F1 project leader Yusuke Hasegawa has outlined a number of reasons why Honda has been struggling so badly in the beginning of the 2017 Formula One season. He confirmed that lots of problems were not discovered while running on the dynamo meter.
Andres125sx wrote:
Where did you get that tenth improvement from last upgrade?
IIRC it was a quote from Mclaren/Honda themselves when they were saying not to get expectations up as it was worth less than a tenth in outright pace and the important thing was better fuel consumption.
It wasn't a direct improvement to fuel consumption, the idea was that increased energy recovery would translate to better fuel economy as they could rely more on the electric side. The problem is one that could only be perceived in hindsight, the outright importance of the combustion. All the other systems on the car depend on chemical energy to mechanical energy conversion. Better combustion gives you better everything else, Honda tried better everything else, and now they focus on combustion. However the new combustion may require a re-think of 'everything else', so will be in a compromised state until they can optimize 'everything else' for the combustion concept(they may have to dial things back a bit for reliability). The positives are that they have a good direction, and that 'everything else' isn't as big a change as you'd imagine.
Plus there is still a nice chunk of time to be found improving the ERS side for better drivability and deployment, although this is more expensive and gains are not assured.
godlameroso wrote:It wasn't a direct improvement to fuel consumption, the idea was that increased energy recovery would translate to better fuel economy as they could rely more on the electric side. The problem is one that could only be perceived in hindsight, the outright importance of the combustion. All the other systems on the car depend on chemical energy to mechanical energy conversion. Better combustion gives you better everything else, Honda tried better everything else, and now they focus on combustion. However the new combustion may require a re-think of 'everything else', so will be in a compromised state until they can optimize 'everything else' for the combustion concept(they may have to dial things back a bit for reliability). The positives are that they have a good direction, and that 'everything else' isn't as big a change as you'd imagine.
Plus there is still a nice chunk of time to be found improving the ERS side for better drivability and deployment, although this is more expensive and gains are not assured.
Why, in your opinion, do you think they need to re-think the-everything-else parts?
Not rethink so much as optimize it for the new combustion concept. Again it's not a lot that probably needs changing but it's just enough to keep the update from working to its full potential, not to say there's no benefit there is, it's a nice step forward. Just that there's certainly more to come, and for obvious reasons won't be seen this year.
Hasegawa:
"We have a huge gap to Renault. I've been surprised by their progress. They have done a very good job.
"Next year, we're aiming to achieve the level of Mercedes engine.
"At this moment, I don't know if that is possible but that is our aim."
With the engine regulations remaining stable until at least 2020, Hasegawa suggested F1 could achieve engine parity before the end of that period.
"To achieve everything the same level, still we need another two or three years," he said.
"Mercedes are also improving, but from a scientific point of view, I don't think they have much room to improve in terms of power compared to us. That is natural.
"From our analysis, their numbers are incredible.
"From an analytical point of view, their power difference hasn't changed from the beginning of the season."
I really hope we can challenge properly in 2018 [-o< [-o< [-o< [-o< [-o<
I wonder if he was speaking in a general sense, or for Honda specifically. Depending on how good this year's update is, they may get close to Mercedes next year already.
Regarding the update, my biggest fear is that the combustion concept works too well. It could affect turbocharger performance since it was designed for a previous combustion concept, and may push the turbo to the limits of it's efficiency islands, not to mention it may push the current MGU-H with more stress due to more power.
What I mean is that in real world running they may notice new "noise" in the boost maps, and will have to rely more on the MGU-H to smooth out those artifacts. Granted it creates new opportunities for energy harvesting, but can also create boost surges, misfires, or other problems if the MGU-H or wastegates can't respond fast enough. Things like this tend to not show up in dynos because it's a more controlled environment than in the car on track.
The performance aspect will match the dyno.. the reliablity aspect is what gets them.. When something gets too hot or breaks and they have to dial back the power.
Lessons have been learnt on that. Honda will be OK on adapting to the power increase. I think.
Pre-chambers have been in diesel engines for ages. So I'm pretty sure none of the wiser head said it is the latest magic. However the latest magic is the TJI (which is not just about a pre-chamber but more) for petrol use. And in engine terms late is anything from twenty to ten years ago haha.
We were very sorry for drivers and the team, but last year we were pressed by time in every single aspect. When you introduce whatever new parts, it's the basic protocol that you conduct durability test, but we coudnt afford the time for that.
Besides, we had to sort out one problem after another, so PU has become like patchwork, so that we had problem in maintenance as well. For example, for last year's PU it took about 10 hours to just take MGU-H and turbo out, so in case any problem occurred there, we had to change whole power unit. But this year we tidied up the layout so it takes only 1/3 of that to do the same.
The reason we were unable to make enough deployment last year is because the turbo was weak. This year we modified that area significantly and are able to make MGU-H function well.
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recently F1 sokuho print is carrying series of interview article featuring Honda staff
sharing two of them that i thought are interesting and contain good tech info
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F1 sokuho Monaco
Nakamura interview (looks like interview conducted on monaco weekend)
Originally employed by Mugen at first, worked on Indycar engine before involved with F1 for Mugen-Honda as Damon Hill's data engineer
Then moved to Honda and worked as data engineer for Villeneuve in 2001, to become race engineer later on. in 2003 moved to R&D to work on F1 engine development.
After Honda withdrawal in 2008, transferred to production car development to work on Accord engine for 3 and half years.
Currently operation/logistics chief since beginning of 2015. Top of logistics on Honda side. In charge of whole logistics matter incl staff arrangement and direction. Also collaborate with Sakura to decide component allocation and communicate and arrange between Mclaren. Top of logistics on Mclaren side is Andrea Stella, so work with him to decide overall logistics.
Last year too many things have happened and season finished very quick so dont remember much, felt like being thrown into washing machine. I have racing experiences but never experienced sth tough like this.
On development, we had to race with unfinished PU every race all season so the best I could do at GP venue is to manage to run it somehow.
Reason is simply lack of time. Current PU is so difficult in combination and matching between engine and motors and turbo unlike prev unit that was only about engine. It's not just about engine horse power but about total efficiency as whole unit, in order for which you sometimes sacrifice engine power.
So, you had to try in order to know it, you could know only after you tried, full of such things. While lack of time was surely due to having participated prematurely, it's also true that we could improve/grow faster only because we participated last year. Last year was always tough because we were criticized harshly from all directions, but we are confident that we gained appropriate/corresponding amount of advantage in proportion to the suffering. Staff have grown up and got stronger mentally. Of course i've got tougher (laughs)
One big achievement of this year is improved reliability. We are now able to trial various things thanks to that. Amount of data that can be obtained increased naturally, so both PU and chassis can be advanced. In that sense, it was about negative spiral last year. Firstly in development phase PU lacked reliability, so break down during evaluation. Then you are unable to obtain the result and data that you are originally supposed to obtain, prolonging/procrastinating whole process. For example, it takes as long as 1 month to obtain the data that can normally be obtained within 1 week. Now, maybe you couldve made and utilized some sort of test-only proto-PU whose reliability has been strengthened, but last year we were already racing in grand prix so it was impossible to chase two hares. We were conducting (dyno) testing with exact same machinery as actual PU used in races, so we couldnt stop this negative spiral.
Both reliability and power, actually there are many things that we know what to do about in order to fix/improve it. But you can't catch up with and do all of them, plus it cannot be done instantly. Even if we have good ideas, it's not like we can implement right away. We try making one thing, then if we make same attempt to reproduce it, but we've got different result or found new issues, then we rectify it and arrange it. we are repeating such efforts many times. Besides, when we bring the actual thing to circuit to run it on real environment, whole set of new facts that cannot be known by simulation only arise, then we clear these one by one to raise the level of ourselves by one stage, it's a repeat of this process. So, it's so obvious actually but, it takes time and it's enormous task.
At Spain, finally we managed to achieve the first objective for the first time, ie going through to Q3. We all made fist pump (laughs) . In current pecking order, we are on the border of Q3 or not Q3. But I thought we had good chance, so it felt like "it's finally come!". Right now we are in the middle of tight mid field pack, so if we can gain another 0.2sec to them we should be able to come out of the pack and become regular Q3 contender. In order for that, increasing power is the next task to solve. If you increase power, there should be some things that will suffer from failure. We'll be again chasing reliability, but I'm confident that we'll be able to make steady step-up. We need to improve not only in PU development but also in management and usage at GP venues. We are not yet able to use full potential of PU and make aggressive usage of PU yet. For example turbo and ignition timing etc, there are some things in which we can still go aggressive even more, and we have actual plans and ideas. Of course these are nothing but accumulating tiny bits of effort, so it's not about such easy talk of improving dramatically/suddenly (laughs)
With current PU, in terms of turbo and electric related parts, I think we are now able to reach certain target. However we have long way to go on engine (ICE) itself, we have to make further, a lot of improvement. More power of course, but also for better fuel consumption, we need better, more efficient combustion, and we feel we are still lacking in that. Improving power and fuel consumption is very difficult, and right now we are challenging the very thing.
Half of Honda staff are in charge of hardware and the other half is software, they are all passionate. Esp those working on data to do control related thing refuse to leave the garage (laughs). They keep staring at pc screen examining data to come up with better solutions and think of how you can meet the demand by drivers. Working on data long time doesnt necessary make it better, but the engineers want to come up with solution, want to find out solution, want to find out better methods by himself. Exchange data and simulate on his own PC to seek anything better, better usage, keep trialing like that. This is kind of task that has no end, so it is my important job as well to make them take a break at certain point to finish there and have them go home / back to hotel (laughs)
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f1 sokuho Germany
Kenji Nakano, HRD Chief Mechanic (he's often taken pics working on PU in garage)
From 2000 started working on F1 engine assembly at Tochigi R&D. Everyone was competing each other on how fast you can assemble accurately, so first impression was "what an incredible place i've come". Not only assembling but also disassemble and analyze is essential, I've learnt those expertise there.
From 2004 started participating testing and attending GP venues, and from 2006 become race mechanic. In 2008 was in charge of KERS, and after F1 withdrawal I was involved with development of Global Race Engine.
Currently in charge of chief mechanic, to oversee overall logistics of hardware. At the moment there are 3 Honda mechanics in garage including me, and the other two are in charge of respective cars.
Honda mechanics are in charge of management of PU, and start with bringing the state of PU ready to be put on the car. It is McLaren mechanics' job to merge PU and chassis together. After that, conduct the management of temperature, pressure, management of fluid related matters in order to be ready to be able to run on the track. During session, monitor state of the hardware to make sure there's no problem. Mechianics are responsible for everything that's not data related.
My specific role is to to allocate components and personnel and adjust date and logistics with mclaren in order to be able to supply power unit on/in time properly and manage the things at GP venues to be able to complete within the set time frame. However, mechanics who are in charge of chassis are so busy during sessions that, when difficut task/situation emerges, I end up having to tackle it sometimes (laughs).
As a mechanics job, philosophy itself doenst change across eras, but actual contents of work has changed a lot compared to the past. Firstly the number of the staff in garage is limited. Since the number of staff working in garage has decreased, the range and quantity of task has changed. When event happens for newly introduced components, you cannot arrange and call someone extra for the support. You cannot work (on tweaking and fixing detail things of components) at the venue, so how well you prepare at the point of factory is becoming essential more and more, and for that aspect too, reliability has significant influence/importance. Also, the number of races is big. Mechanics have to know everything about hardware, but current F1 has so many races as well as back-to-back races, so it's very hard to take enough time for preparation. That means the number of opportunity for practicing decreases. How to compensate that and manage things to proceed the task is the difficult part. Besides, the number of spare parts to be brought to races has increased many folds compared to the past due to ERS etc. This is a task of quite a volume too.
Current PU has become so complex in both structure and architecture, and motor and turbo are non-disassemble unit, so if something wrong happens, exchange the whole unit. Last year we were plagued by reliability, so we had to have this task of exchanging so many times, which was tough. This year the reliability has improved to certain level, so we are finally able to revise/alter the maintainance-ability . The components called unit are defined so by the reg, so have to be designed to be replaceable easily. We were aware of those things, but we have been made to realize that painfully throughout last year, so we revised it focusing on that particular point, so the maintainance-ability has improved quite a bit.
That task for us mechanics does not become hard is actually good thing for the team, but when something happens and we are able to notice it immediately and reach to the root cause of the problem straight away and solve it instantly by utilizing all our experience, we feel the most satisfaction. Also, what I'm concioius about the most is the significance of responsibility. Everyone at Sakura and MK have worked so hard on the PU, and we bring the very PU to the track, so I'm at the task thinking "we'll definitely extract all it's got", so I feel very excited.
Our tiniest mistake would ruin all the effort and incredible amount of time and money everyone has poured. Our responsibility is significant not only to Honda but also the team and drivers, so the pressure is enormous, but at the same time that's what gives me the sense of fulfillment and what's exciting.
I sometimes get asked "What's required for race mechanics of F1?", but the world is the stage in F1, so just existing at the venue itself is considerable burden, just being here is incredible. I used to feel like that too at first. So, first and foremost, it's stamina, courage and mentality to be able to withstand the pressure, I reckon. Regarding team members, they are all training hard because current F1 has no refueling hence tyre change directly influence time in races. They are all athlete, indeed. So physical aspect is essential too, I think.
What I want my colleagues to possess the most is, after all, passion. Maybe you can call it obsession/tenacity/etc, the mindset of never giving up. Everyone has such moment that you ask yourself "do you really need to to that much?". In that moment, you have to think about what's really essential, it's tough and exhausting, but have to focus on it to make this one more step to encourage yourself by "no, not gonna give up, but do it". I want others to have such firm, thrusting/moving-forward mindset as well. What's exhausting is not only about physical but also everything incl environment around you, viewpoint of timeline etc. This positive mindset is what's the most important and necessary in tackling with these tough moments, I think.
I also get asked about knowledge and expertise, but that's prerequisite/baseline/must-have. Looking at Mclaren's system, type of people who improve and level up as a mechanic is simply skilled/talented people. Notice things well, work faster and more accurate than anyone else and make no mistake. Those people simply/naturally go up the ladder. Then eventually go on to be in a position to become the no.1 mechanic. But there are several staff who are no.1 level within a team, and there have been many such people so far. However the kind of people who go on to become chief mechanic are extremely qualified. Skilled more than anyone is prerequisite, knowledgeable more than anyone else is prerequisite. In addition to that, possessing negotiation skill, decision skill, ability to make appropriate judgement....incredible, truly incredible. Mclarne's chief mechanics are not just at the world's top level, but actually the world's best, I think. I'm witnessing these things, so while it's giving me excellent stimulus, I also feel the significance in the title of my position as chief mechanic.
The big target is to achieve victory no matter what during my tenure. As for my role, it's training of mechanics. I'm not sure when it will be, but for example if we supply PU to multiple teams in future, we have to increase the number of mechanics. In our project this time, the human resource development is one of the most significant objectives, and it's rather subdued but we are making an unprecedented challenge of bringing/training mechanics from local staff.
This is F1, where mechanics of worlds top level gather. In terms of mechanic as a job, no doubt the world's top class personnel come here. These mechanics are evaluated by how smoothly, fast and efficiently you are able to work. So what are we going to fight there with? Personally I consider Japanese mindset/characteristics of doing your best by sort of self-sacrificing a strength but there is a limit in that. Besides in Europe there is culture difference, so it's not the sort of thing that can be accepted widely.
The best strength is that Honda's mechanics possess element of engineer. For example when we go back to factory, we are build engineers who conduct assembly as well. That we are able to be involved with development of productivity directly is our strength, so Honda's mechanics can do more than what a mere mechanics are supposed to do. To go even further, we'd like to make "Honda's mechanics are group of such kind" the norm. We are able to not only work on task as mechanic but also to demand "this components should be this way", I think that's what's different from others mechanics, so I consider we should strengthen and train that aspect furthermore. That might be bit too wide as a range for mechanics, but when Soichiro Honda was active there was no particular difference/boundary b/w mechanic and engineer, so that's where Honda's racing philosophy is coming from. You catch all the balls that are within your reach instead of just staying within your role. All the staff are thinking "I'll do it" is what the group called Honda is about, I think, so we'd like to value that aspect in particular.
What i was happy about the most is last year's Monaco where Jenson came in 8th. That first points was so pleasing that i couldnt almost take it. Still the most impressive moment. In this job, you only remember about what didnt go well. What's pleasing passes by in an instant. I always remember frustration at that time, regret at this time, only those sorts of things, but about Monaco I felt genuinely happy. We celebrated each other, and esp when I hugged with mclaren's chief mechanic shouting "we got point!", I felt happiness for which there is no substitute whatsoever. I hope there will be more pleasures coming in future, perhaps that will be podium and win, I guess.
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others featured are data/race engineers
also mclaren staff working with them are interviewed and talk about each of honda staff
what they (both honda and mclaren staff) are saying is that last year they were clumsy in communicating with each other but each made own personal efforts to get to know and understand each other more and get along.
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article about Hasegawa interview conducted on 4th August at Sakura
http://www.f1-stinge...8/22/060581.php
we'd like to introduce as soon as we finish the verification, even for Spa which is the next race. But as for when we can really introduce, it's me who want to know it.
Other interesting bit is
Only after we verify many options that would yield performance gain and get actual certain outcome, then we begin to think about token. (rather than pinpointing where to fix and what to do beforehand)
this article is kinda ad article for full interview article for print magazine to be out later in the month btw so not much notable remarks
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."
