2017-2020 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

[FPV GTHO]

The front wing is still too big, the floor is too wide and the rear wing end plates look silly.

Agree.

Whether they look silly or not, I believe there is logic behind those 2 regulations.

Since we used stepped floors, mated with small diffusers, the floors are far less powerful than pre 1994. The downforce from the underbodies allowed closer racing, as the wings didn't have to produce as much downforce, hence turbulent flow behind another car was less detrimental.

Now, with stepped floors, the new rules seek to maximise the spans of the wings as a band aid measure to restore grip, as well as the wider rubber, hence the kinked rear wing endplates.

The underlying problem is with the floor, but politically I believe a flat floor/ tunnels would be frowned. This is a good 'fix' in light of that root cause in my opinion.....

Pat

The wide front wing has nothing to do with the stepped floor. They introduced it simultaneously with the neutral central section as the idea was to move the downforce generated from the front wing away from the centre where it was highly sensitive to dirty air, to the tips where in conjunction with a narrower rear wing and weaker diffuser it was less sensitive.

[bigpat]

Hmmm.....I don't really buy that, as the front wing does carry a bigger burden aerodynamically, precisely because the stepped floor/ diffuser system isn't as effective, though it must be said that narrowing the track width of the cars in 1998 by 200mm, really killed the efficiency of the floors, and have had a cascading effect ever since.

The modern wings look to a large degree more about wake management of the rotating wheel behind it. A fair chunk of R&D is spent on this, (evident by the amount of front wing vane /endplate development throughout a season) but the FIA / Technical Working Group doesn't see fit to curb this as part of their cost cutting measures, for a small area that eats resources.

The neutral section I feel was a bit of a gimmick. Prior to it there was active development, and it seems settled solutions to make it work with high and low noses. The teams learned to deal with the situation in wing design. I feel that the neutral section was an unnecessary imposition just making the wings more and more critical outboard, and results in increased sensitivity, and a significant drop in aero load when in disturbed air, or when damaged in a racing impact.

As you said the weak diffuser ( directly related in part to having a stepped floor ) and narrow wing, has resulted in the front wing being a bigger driver more than ever of the flow over and under the entire car. The changes, in my opinion, have worked the wrong way in increasing the ability of cars to follow each other more closely through corners to help overtaking...

[toraabe]

Exactly. The main downforce should be from the floor and tunnels, with the angle of the diffuser much less than the current one. The wings should only be trim wings. No skirts, but a angle from the side like on the XJR11 http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/l ... -11_13.jpg

[godlameroso]

Which is what it seems like is going to happen, the wings are being made bigger only to compensate from the increased turbulence and drag from the bigger wheels, the real gains come from the floor, and mechanical grip. I think for once the changes are going to make racing better. The amount of downforce the wings can produce is a bit of a washout with the added drag and turbulence from the tires, maybe the rear wing is more effective, but the real gains are in the floor. The loophole in the neutral section the bigger barge boards the wider floor, moving the tires away from the floor, and the bigger diffuser with a closer rear wing to work it harder, along with the exhaust.

[Juzh]

I think you're underestimating the influence wing span and dimensions have on downforce generated. Newey himself mentioned back in 2014 how a "tiny" reduction in front wing width had a massive impact on the car.

[godlameroso]

I don't think I am. I stated pretty clearly that I think overall the extra downforce produced by the front wing will be cancelled out by the extra turbulence and drag caused by the larger wheel. Maybe later on in the year after some developments I can certainly believe that my statement will be reversed. At the start of the year, I think we'll see 2010 speeds, and by the end of the season they will be a further 2-3 seconds faster.

[bigpat]

I don't think I am. I stated pretty clearly that I think overall the extra downforce produced by the front wing will be cancelled out by the extra turbulence and drag caused by the larger wheel. Maybe later on in the year after some developments I can certainly believe that my statement will be reversed. At the start of the year, I think we'll see 2010 speeds, and by the end of the season they will be a further 2-3 seconds faster.

I think you are correct in terms of efficiency. The higher down force will be countered by drag from the wider wheels.

But the cars WILL have more down force compared to this year, which simply translated is more grip. They WILL also have more mechanical grip, combined, with a wider track, the cars WILL go faster around corners. I still think that they won't be able to race in close proximity with out suffering badly from turbulence.

The close racing is what the rulemakers and us, the public want, regardless of the relative speed of the cars. We want to see battles like Bahrain 2014 as the norm, showing true racecraft, as the normal, not exception...

Funnily enough at the Belgian GP press conference, Lewis Hamilton sees the actual racing not changing much, still having to conserve tyres, fuel and engines, rather than racing to the cars full potential. Alonso stated that if its much the same, he'll probably retire. He said compared to the cars of the early to mid 2000's these cars are not a challenge to race.

[Pierce89]

I don't think I am. I stated pretty clearly that I think overall the extra downforce produced by the front wing will be cancelled out by the extra turbulence and drag caused by the larger wheel. Maybe later on in the year after some developments I can certainly believe that my statement will be reversed. At the start of the year, I think we'll see 2010 speeds, and by the end of the season they will be a further 2-3 seconds faster.

I think you are correct in terms of efficiency. The higher down force will be countered by drag from the wider wheels.

But the cars WILL have more down force compared to this year, which simply translated is more grip. They WILL also have more mechanical grip, combined, with a wider track, the cars WILL go faster around corners. I still think that they won't be able to race in close proximity with out suffering badly from turbulence.

The close racing is what the rulemakers and us, the public want, regardless of the relative speed of the cars. We want to see battles like Bahrain 2014 as the norm, showing true racecraft, as the normal, not exception...

Funnily enough at the Belgian GP press conference, Lewis Hamilton sees the actual racing not changing much, still having to conserve tyres, fuel and engines, rather than racing to the cars full potential. Alonso stated that if its much the same, he'll probably retire. He said compared to the cars of the early to mid 2000's these cars are not a challenge to race.

If close racing regardless of pace, is what you want, go watch BTCC. F1 has always been the quickest road racing series in the world. That has always been and should always be the calling card of f1.

[bigpat]

I don't disagree with you!

It is still the fastest class at the moment, but my point being when you watch it, whether its 3 or 6 seconds quicker than a GP 2 car is irrelevant if the racing is great.

Look at ChampCar in the 90's /2000's. The wheel to wheel racing was awesome. never mind they were slower than a F1 car on street circuits. They were still fast and hard enough to drive to sort the men from the boys...

Honestly, I want to see awesome racing, rather than have missiles on wheels that conduct a procession on track, dependent upon pitstop strategies to change the running order.....

[j2004p]

Look at ChampCar in the 90's /2000's. The wheel to wheel racing was awesome. never mind they were slower than a F1 car on street circuits. They were still fast and hard enough to drive to sort the men from the boys...

This sort of thing, I can watch these two go at it over and over again!

[djos]

Look at ChampCar in the 90's /2000's. The wheel to wheel racing was awesome. never mind they were slower than a F1 car on street circuits. They were still fast and hard enough to drive to sort the men from the boys...

This sort of thing, I can watch these two go at it over and over again!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3JACzLwxos

I really miss those days! the racing was exceptional! They could race this close because the front wings were mainly trim devices and they had big underbody venturi tunnels which didn't stop working in close proximity to other cars.

I love the complexity and beautiful design of the RB12 front wing but lets be real, we should have no more than 2 horizontal elements and proper venturi tunnels again!

[toraabe]

And champ / indy cars were and still are Ground Effect cars.

[djos]

And champ / indy cars were and still are Ground Effect cars.

Not to the same extent that they used to be tho I think, now they have tons of wing elements in road course trim.



oh and the modern Indy cars are really fugly!!!



EDIT: here's an old Champ Car floor, they were pretty highly developed compared to the simple Indy Car floor:

[rscsr]

oh and the modern Indy cars are really fugly!!!

The main problem with the look in my opinion are the rear bumpers and wings on top of them. There was a tweet where they tried running without them and it looked pretty nice. And I don't think they do anything as they are breaking off whenever you barely touch them.

[NL_Fer]

So the big fromtwing gets runover very easily, how will a smaller wing work with the wide car and tyres?