A visious and vendictive vendetta

[mx_tifoso]

Hi Thanks for the welcome

I'm not sure what you mean though with your last paragraph, do you mean it's better to be subjective or to become more objective?

Your welcome.

AFAIC, objective is better .

But I understand your post, sometimes emotions take charge without taking into account factual information, it happens to everyone (take a look at some of my previous posts! ).

[NickT]

First hearing
McLaren V Ferrari = McLaren get off free, Ferrari appeal after learning of things such as emails. Ferrari win after appeal. McLaren still somehow manage to come out smelling of roses despite cheating and consistently lieing to the press with comments about being sporting and taking it on the chin, yet straight away appealing and trying to get a rival team the same punishment

1. If McLaren was as you say "cheating and consistently lying" then why did Ron Denis go straight to the FIA as soon as he found out about the emails in Hungry?

2. Nigel Stepney has said that the flow of information was in both directions, not just Ferrari to McLaren, but also McLaren to Ferrari. It is also well known that there are often conversations between drivers and engineers of different teams where this info is exchanged.

But then may be we should right off all comments of Ron Denis, Nigel Stepney, Jackie Stewart and anyone else who dares to disagree with Max Moseley and the FIA, who are after all are just, honest, fair and consistent?

[bettonracing]

2. Nigel Stepney has said that the flow of information was in both directions, not just Ferrari to McLaren, but also McLaren to Ferrari. It is also well known that there are often conversations between drivers and engineers of different teams where this info is exchanged.

Although his claim does merit at least a query of some sort, he does have reasonable motive to slander Ferrari, and most peculiar of all, this claim was not validated by Mike Coughlan, nor persued by Mclaren. For all we know, that may just have been a smart move by Ron & Mike because in the movies, ppl usually end up having to relocate and assume new identities (or choose the below-sea-level alternative) when they go up against the italian mafia...

Regards,

Kurt

[Ciro Pabón]

C'mon, boys and girls, breath deeply. Exhale. Smile. Again.

As I'm not fan of any corporation or brand, , I stand by these two things that in the previous posts seem irreconcilable:

- McLaren, the corporation, did not lie.

At least Ron Dennis had thrown himself to the mercy of the court AND the court of history. Had Mr. Dennis tried to "cunningly" covert his actions, he is taking a great risk, not only for himself, but for McLaren, the work of his life, not to mention that, frankly, it does not "fit the guy's profile".

AFAIK, no one has come forward to even suggest that he knew, not even Ferrari itself.

And, ehem, anyone who suggest he knew, could have the savoir faire to provide at least a source or a link.

- Renault does not deserve a monetary penalty.

McLaren was not fined by "stealing the designs", which is something that, BTW, will happen now and in the far future as has happened in the past, unless "they" recreate slavery and "we" are unable to switch jobs forever, like in Middle Age guilds.

McLaren was fined because his top designer got information, by phone, from his competitor, about actual strategies, like pit laps and tire pressures. Mr. Coughlan went as far as transmiting it to the drivers. If that's not unfair advantage, then you tell me what it is.

So, the lesson is clear: stealing designs is bad but spying on people's actions and decisions is very bad. I fail to see how to sum up the whole situation in any other way.

In the end, I can imagine the flak towards FIA had Renault received a heavy penalty. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

[ForceI]

1. If McLaren was as you say "cheating and consistently lying" then why did Ron Denis go straight to the FIA as soon as he found out about the emails in Hungry?

McLaren were caught cheating with the emails etc. When I said lying I also said it was to the press, refering to when Ron mentioned being sporting and accepting to punishment, and how people still think of them being the good guys despite going back on these words. Not about lying to the FIA about not knowing about what was going on behind his back as I do beleive he didn't know.

2. Nigel Stepney has said that the flow of information was in both directions, not just Ferrari to McLaren, but also McLaren to Ferrari. It is also well known that there are often conversations between drivers and engineers of different teams where this info is exchanged.

This doesn't change the fact McLaren were caught cheating, having a 500(Right amount?) page dossier on Ferrari data is a lot different to having conversations along the pitlane between team members and if the data was going both ways then Ferrari should have been punished as well, but like someone has already posted he does have a reason to slander Ferrari and try to get them into trouble.

But then may be we should write off all comments of Ron Denis, Nigel Stepney, Jackie Stewart and anyone else who dares to disagree with Max Moseley and the FIA, who are after all are just, honest, fair and consistent?

When did I say their comments should be written off? I think Rons comments should be taken with a pinch of salt being on how he has gone back on some of his words during the case. Jackie Stewart should also be taken with a pinch of salt when it comes to British teams as he won't give an unbiased opinion. Why should there comments be written off anyway it would be pretty boring if we all agreed, especially if we all agreed with Max as we'd end up with mobiltiy scooter racing. I'm all for disagreeing with Max, he keeps on bringing in the most rediculas rules that are ruing the sport, 10 year engine freeze is a complete farce

[sAx]

The FIA and Max Moseley are both nothing more than slanderous, vicious and vindictive bully boys set on settling old personal scores through open victimisation and intimidation.

McLaren v Ferrari = $100,000,000 fine, no points from 2007, the wrong end of the pitlane for 2008 with 2 garages next year and a soured reputation.

Renault v McLaren = a slap on the wrist, keep their points and the money, keep their position in the pit lane, 3 garages, travel assistance and their integrity.

I challenge anyone out there to demonstrate how the punishment delt out to Renault is in anyway comparable to that given to McLaren and how Renault's offence against McLaren is any less serious than McLaren's offence against Ferrari. McLaren's punishment was based on a "perceived" advantage they may have gained from the Ferrari data, data that was never in the McLaren building or on it's database. Renault had a complete set of drawings and data for both of McLaren's 2006 and 2007 cars, this data was available and used on the Renault database from the end of 2006.

All I can say about Max Moseley is, like father, like son. His behaviour over the last year reminds me of the very person and party his father supported in the 1930s+40s. Yesterday's verdict just goes to show how consistent and fair the FIA are in their dealings with all the teams - NOT. Mr Moseley I hope, with the greatest of sincerity, that you and your team at the FIA are subjected to the same scrutiny buy the EU Commision and like wise subjected to similar penalties and retribution, for Mr Moseley, you and your team are more guilty of bringing F1 into disrepute than any other group of people in the pit lane.

Completely agree! Just sent this to the PF-1 letters page:

The sub plot becomes clearer daily (to me at least!). There is only one significant and usual feature that separates McLaren from the rest of the paddock. Specifically the hire of a driver who is in possession of a 50%ile hue that the FIA hierarchy would like to see disposed as the latent figure head of its premier racing series. Insisting that the MP4-23 cannot be declared ‘legal’ until the dawn of the new season, is the latest FIA measure to stem McLaren's development process and so ensure that the latent figure head receives no advantage from his own teams intellectual capital in 2008. It is a decision that father of Max would have been proud of.


McLaren is complicit in so far as it refuses to take the FIA to the European court of justice for the most unjust and vulgar discrimination of a signatory concorde member participating within its F1 series.

sAx

[NickT]

C'mon, boys and girls, breath deeply. Exhale. Smile. Again.

Takes a deep breath - Aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh............

Apologies ForceI if things got a little personal. I am not going to get drawn further into this, my gripe is with the Max Moseley and the FIA, not you guys, especially as the emails were the result of Mike Coughlan's unauthorised and unknown work, until Hungary.

What is interesting is that the only people who have gained out of this is Ferrari. If this was a novel I'd half expect us to cut to Jean Todt's secret underground base:

"Well done agent Stepney, your work has certainly helped under mine our main opposition and allowed us to win both championships this season, while also neutralising Mike Coughlan and diverting attention away from having our mass damper discovered at the first race.

Agent Brawn has brought back some interesting details about the rest of the opposition having scouted out each of them on the premiss of "looking for his next challenge". He will now sort out Honda so that they can cause problems for the other top 3 teams.

Unfortunately despite agent MacKereth's initial success at liberating the blue prints for both of McLaran's 2006 and 2007 designs and then planting them at Renault, it seams that the FIA have baulked at dishing out a similar punishment to McLaren.

Finally gentleman I'd like outline how we will overcome BMW's rising fortune's" The short French man with the Napoleon complex walks around the table taking a large puff of his Cuban cigar before placing it in the ashtray, bending forward he picks up white Persian cat and settles into his leather chair, stroking the purring mass of fur and claws, just as a heavily disguised agent Moseley reveals himself to the team.......

There you go that should keep the conspiracy theorists going for a while

[Ray]

Found on the SpeedTV F1 forum. Funny as hell.

I would imagine that to McLaren haters it looks like the Death Star with Darth Vader theme music playing, Emperor Ron and Lord Vader(Lewis Hamilton) "as you wish, my master." This analogy has legs! Alonso is Luke Skywalker who can't be turned to the Dark side, but gets damaged in the process. Somebody, stop me!

[ForceI]

We all have different opinions, it's why we're on the net, as long as it's for the reason of trying to prove your corner then it's not too personal for me. .


Thanks for the apology and I apologies as well if my post annoyed you at all, and I can see where your coming from with yours, but I think the trouble is you need to be in the head of everyone involved in the sport to trully know whats going on, and lol at the conspsiracy, I bet it will be on autosport within a matter of hours as fact.

It's a lot harder trying to reply to a post saying you agree with someone and what they've said is funny and you want to get on than it is disagreeing with them

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, the Anakimi Skywalker thing is old, it predates the efforts by Leia Hamilton. I don't know who posted this on the "Caption" thread: I hope it wasn't me.

AnaKimi: Damn! Obi-Juan Kenobi is somewhere around here! We must crush the Rebel Alliance!

[NickT]

If you would like to register a vote of "No Confidence" in Max Moseley, then please take a moment to fill out this at GoPetition:

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/vot ... tures.html

[bizadfar]

But reading the FIA transcript of the Renault hearing, there seems to be plenty of FACTUAL evidence that Renault saw/read and used Mclaren material. The fact that i had not effected the championship is irrelvant.. a crime is a crime if it succeeds or not.

Attempted Robbery is different from Robbery.

But I agree, the penalty for Renault is too soft, while on the other end the Penalty for Mclaren was too hard (the money esp).

[Carlos]

Thanks NickT - For posting GoPetition - I've put my name to the Mosley writ

[NickT]

Here we go again Max and his cronies trying to silence Martin Brundle for expressing his views but his reply is excellent:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 021312.ece

I have to admit I am a little mystified as to why there has been so little written about Renault's escape and the FIA's apparent double standards, perhaps Martin has made a valid point. Hum hoo IMHO it wouldn't surprise me if Max and his team at the FIA will be wearing brown shirts soon.

Even these guys are treading very carefully http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19924.html and http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64328 they are both normally fairly balanced reference points, so may be Martin has hit the nail on the head.

[ben_watkins]

That's a great link,

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 021312.ece

I'd missed that so thanks very much.. Brundle is the best F1 commentator I've seen to be honest.

This all looks highly dodgy doesn't it.. Max trying now to silence any critics/critical view of his decisions.. Can anyone say Armin, or Mugabe??