Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Sasha]

With the Compressor still in the V and using a weird advance design type(very long and narrow.....30cm long!!!!!),they will not match the other PU's top-end power.

That will not be fixed until next year when the Compressor gets moved out of the V and they go to the standard pancake style Compressor.

The compressor is much bigger now. Evident of the raised airbox on exhaust piping compared to last year. Their problem is the combustion efficiency. After they solve that, they will change the turbine and compressor to suit. I suspect that, for now combustion tuning it is firstly done on a dyno with compressed air piped to the engine and the turbine back-pressure emmulated. After that they will add a real turbocharger.

It is not much bigger(10%).....not even close to what they need to compete with MB.

The old TC was maxed out at the old CC design.They had to change the turbine to get better ER and they went as big as they could with the compressor while keeping it in the V but it is still the limiting factor on max power.So they are just going to get the combustion efficiency and ER down this year.New whole TC design and more top-end power next year.Their biggest decision is the split-turbo(MB) or everything in the rear.(Ferrari,Renault)They are testing both designs now.

[Roostfactor]

Thanks for that insight Sasha. I am new here but i am seriously impressed with the positive and constructive information conveyed on this site!

With Honda's current layout (mguh) between comp/turbine it would'nt seem like too much effort to lengthen the coupling shaft and put the comp on the front.

Thoughts?

[PlatinumZealot]

New dynamics on the shaft. Longer shaft means your first natural frequencies show up at lower revolutions per min. Which can lead to catastrophic failure if this in in the range of operation of the turbine. So they will go with a bigger or stronger or more supported shaft.

It is not as simple as making a the compressor bigger. The honda compressor is as big as it needs to be. As discussed earlier and measured from photos to get the 2015 Honda compressor the same size as Mercedes only needed a 30mm raise in height of the centre shaft. It looks Honda has increased the height of the airbox to get more room under it but it is not made public how much bigger the compressor is this year. We have no photos to go off yet.

[Roostfactor]

It was a good job yes.

Wait till they get TJI.

I thought TJI was to be introduced at SPA. What did they change with combustion if TJI was not implemented?

[PlatinumZealot]

They originally announced a fuel upgrade for Spa but interestingly they brought more. I doubt they have the TJI because of their power output has not actaully increased in much the same way as Renault's did when they got theirs. Hasegawa has not hinted at releasing any novel technologies as cyril abiteboul did when renault go theirs. I can only go by the speeds in sectors one and three of spa but I think the TJI engine is still on the dyno.

I have no idea what they changed in the chamber but it could be a solution they wanted to introduce last year but could not be cause of reliablity issues that had to be solved first. Each new solution takes months to put in. I think the TJI might be released for suzuka or maybe held back till next year.

[Roostfactor]

That does seem to be the latest rumor that the final upgrade at Suzuka. It must be extremely frustrating to potentially have improvements tested and ready for implementation but not be allowed to use due to token restriction. Yes, I know it takes time to develop but i would think Honda with their knowledge and resources could expedite the process.

The pu must have been in extreme infancy the beginning of 2015.

[godlameroso]

Oh it's a CVCC/TJI type system, however it's in it's infancy, the Ferrari system has the whole thing enclosed in the injector, spark plug, pre-chamber, main nozzle, any other extra things we don't know about. I suspect that all the others have a similar setup, what we see in Honda is version one, whereas the others are already on version 3 or 4. Perhaps with Honda's experience in having to build compromised downsized components, will make the decision to place the turbo at the back of the engine easier, seeing as they can take that experience and craft something without having a much larger footprint than now. They could also just as easily copy Mercedes though.

*Maybe the compressor is really the limiting factor to get top end power, and that they couldn't change it because there's simply not enough tokens. They made as many changes as they could to try to improve things but no matter what they do the design is ultimately compromised.

I'm glad that the concepts they introduced worked however, because it means that they don't have to waste time getting the combustion concept right. They already have it 80% down, now it's just a matter of evolving their concepts, and using the knowledge gained these last two years to select a better specification of components. Next year they will find their stride with these power units, just hope the chassis is up to snuff.

[Roostfactor]

Agreed. Maybe they underestimated the competition in the beginning or didnt have enough allocated resources, who knows, but now it appears they are on the right path.

[GhostF1]

Hey guys,

New to post, not the forum, I read this religiously, so it feels like I know pretty much all of you haha. I thought it was about time to enter the really good discussions that take place here!

I believe Hasegawa has mentioned in previous interviews something to do with the structural design and shape of the combustion chamber was an area of focus at Sakura. So they've likely just optimised the chamber for the current blueprint PU as opposed to completely overhauling the ignition/fuel system this year. I've also seen a few outlets claiming this updated PU and turbo is just clawing back the power that was sapped with the Canada spec turbo used to increase Energy Recovery.

Assuming they are just optimising the current design as best they can to remain competitive. It's like in just general PU output/efficiency terms, the whole year has been 1 step forward, half a step back, then 1 step forward, over and over again just to get to the perfect balance of recovery and output. They're moving forward but there have been intervals of sacrifice to prepare for intervals of advancement.

Honestly, I'm very excited to see their performance at Singapore onwards!

[GhostF1]

Hey guys,

New to posting, but not new to the forum, I've been following it religiously for months now so I feel as though I know most of you in some weird way haha.

I believe Hasegawa mentioned something a while ago about the combustion chamber structure and shape being a focus point at Sakura so this could be what was addressed in the update?
So maybe that mixed with this turbo upgrade could be clawing back (probably with a few extra kW/Hp) the power they sacrificed with the Montreal Turbo to increase Energy Recovery?

It seems to be one step forward, half a step back, one step forward all year! So many sacrificial upgrades in preparation for actual progress. All signs look quite good even from Spa though!

I'll be keen to see how they stack up from Singapore onwards!

[loner]

Albert Fabrega ES
Yes, Mk3
PGTech™ @SmilexTech
new Spec per Fernando

so the mk4 spec engine they used in 2015 in the Russian gp in october
the Malaysian gp looks highly likely for mk4 spec engine

[Sasha]

They originally announced a fuel upgrade for Spa but interestingly they brought more. I doubt they have the TJI because of their power output has not actaully increased in much the same way as Renault's did when they got theirs. Hasegawa has not hinted at releasing any novel technologies as cyril abiteboul did when renault go theirs. I can only go by the speeds in sectors one and three of spa but I think the TJI engine is still on the dyno.

I have no idea what they changed in the chamber but it could be a solution they wanted to introduce last year but could not be cause of reliablity issues that had to be solved first. Each new solution takes months to put in. I think the TJI might be released for suzuka or maybe held back till next year.

The problem isn't the size of the compressor but the design.It does unexpected things unlike the standard radial pancake style.

They are just behind on CC because they just do not have Turbo Diesel history like MB.But are now looking to their past CVCC(the old-timers Honda 80's era engineers who are helping designing the new CC and TC was shocked that the team didn't go that route from day one).

Their CC design uses pre-chamber and their working on a trick multi-stage with heater fuel injector.

[Sasha]

From Horses mouth...

"The design of the current compressor just has too many limitations to make significant changes on it's performance.Much easier to modify more conventional pancake style design."

"It's really coming down to injector redesign,an adaptation of some pre-chamber and piston design.We're working on a 4 stage injector with two spray pattern and timed,staged injection capability."

[Thunder]

Sounds positive. They seem to know exactly where the Problems are and how to fix them.

[hurril]

From Horses mouth...

"The design of the current compressor just has too many limitations to make significant changes on it's performance.Much easier to modify more conventional pancake style design."

"It's really coming down to injector redesign,an adaptation of some pre-chamber and piston design.We're working on a 4 stage injector with two spray pattern and timed,staged injection capability."

Would someone like to help (me) a little with these terms means with regards to the injectors? What is a multi-stage injector?