Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

Different spray patterns at different loads, or engine speeds. I mentioned this in the main engine thread, a couple other people kept asking about multistage injectors.

How about cracking the fuel in addition to heating it? By cracking I mean using rhenium or platinum electrodes or an electric mesh in the fuel rail to catalyze the fuel into simpler chains. This would free up some oxygenates and hydrogen gas, as well as making the fuel easier to combust.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracking_(chemistry)

[hurril]

I see - thank you!

These are the things that keep me coming back to our current formula. This is violently (yes!) interesting

[fellowhoodlums]

ok, so if the pre-injection isn't there yet and another update Singapore potentially......would 3 tokens be enough to introduce it? What can 3 tokens get you?

From what i can find, Ferrari spent 3 tokens in Canada 2015 and that's when they introduced it.

[Tommy Cookers]

.......How about cracking the fuel in addition to heating it? By cracking I mean using rhenium or platinum electrodes or an electric mesh in the fuel rail to catalyze the fuel into simpler chains. This would free up some oxygenates and hydrogen gas, as well as making the fuel easier to combust.

the unfortunately-named oxygenates would be a waste of space in F1 fuel, their oxygen has already been used ie unavailable for combustion

the secret of TJI is to burn successfully (ie quickly and consistently) a leaner mixture than otherwise possible
because of the efficiency benefits of such heat dilution
ie same heat, more air mass reduces heat loss to coolant and exhaust and so increases conversion to work in-cylinder
(but does not increase turbine recovery)

in a piston engine a gas fuel can be burnt successfully much leaner than a liquid fuel
even without catalysis combustion of a rich mixture reduces some of the liquid fuel to methane (and produces CO of course)
these gases could then be burnt very lean
fuel chemistry has a role in this case

extremely high leaning may then be worthwhile even if in-cylinder combustion 'efficiency' (completeness ie consistency) is degraded
and the F1 turbine can recover better at these high boosts from any post-cylinder combustion

boost pressure tells us how much leaning is used - imo around 3.2 bar abs tells us it's around 40% lean

[daren_p]

ok, so if the pre-injection isn't there yet and another update Singapore potentially......would 3 tokens be enough to introduce it? What can 3 tokens get you?

From what i can find, Ferrari spent 3 tokens in Canada 2015 and that's when they introduced it.

From what Toto previously said, it works as a complete system, so I would assume the amount of tokens required would depend on how many of the current components are designed to work with pre-ignition. If the rest of the components were already upgraded/spec'd with PI in mind, then maybe 3 tokens would do it but if not, I'd assume it would take more.

If Honda did just use 3 tokens for a combustion chamber update, I wouldn't think they would spend the last tokens on another combustion update, as it would seem like a waste of 3 tokens. They previously said their last update this season would be to the ERS system.

[godlameroso]

3 tokens = new combustion concept, however it's not always that simple because there usually has to be supporting modifications to get the full benefit of each concept.

CVCC, which is what Honda's concept is based off, is very much active in the new power unit upgrade. It's just a mark 1 version. It's a tough decision, because you could also do a ES and BMS upgrade with the 3 tokens should better batteries become available. Or you could introduce mark 2 of your CVCC system in the hopes of another small power or efficiency boost. There's still scope for some improvement in this power unit but it's nowhere near what is possible for next year. These tracks don't suit the package at the moment, Singapore should be much better as speeds never really go past 320kph even with DRS wide open. The lower the time spent at speeds over 300kph the more things go in McLaren's favor, the Asian rounds, COTA, and Abu Dhabi are good chances to get good points, at least be ahead of the midfield.

[godlameroso]

.......How about cracking the fuel in addition to heating it? By cracking I mean using rhenium or platinum electrodes or an electric mesh in the fuel rail to catalyze the fuel into simpler chains. This would free up some oxygenates and hydrogen gas, as well as making the fuel easier to combust.

the unfortunately-named oxygenates would be a waste of space in F1 fuel, the oxygen is already used ie unavailable for combustion

the secret of TJI is to burn successfully a leaner mixture than otherwise possible
because of the efficiency benefits of such heat dilution
ie same heat, more air mass reduces heat loss to coolant and exhaust and so increases conversion to work in-cylinder
(but does not increase turbine recovery)

a gas fuel can be burnt successfully much leaner than a liquid fuel
combustion of a rich mixture will reduce some of the liquid fuel to methane (and produce CO of course)
these gases could then be burnt very lean
fuel chemistry has a role in this case

boost pressure will tell us how much leaning is used - imo around 3.2 bar abs tells us it's around 40% lean

I mean in addition to TJI, perhaps another "feature" of the injector is that it can use a heated catalyst element to allow even further leaning than the system would be capable of alone. Or perhaps I'm missing something and this is already a part of the system.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 0X96003298'

* http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1703000113

This shows it's possible and works.

[Tommy Cookers]

ok but the boost used will always tell us the leaning used
so further leaning eg from gasification of fuel would show up as higher boost than currently used

[godlameroso]

ok but the boost used will always tell us the leaning used
so further leaning eg from gasification of fuel would show up as higher boost than currently used

Except they're somewhat limited by the compressor in that regard.

[Tommy Cookers]

well I was just logging on to say that
regradless, further leaning would still show up as higher boost

[PlatinumZealot]

I see some glaring contradictions spoken here on the injection and ignition systems in the Honda but I will hold my tongue on those.

Anyway. Based on evidence so far Honda either does not have TJI and will not until next year's engine - or they have it but have not tuned it in yet. The former is more likely than the latter.

[GoranF1]

NO TURBULENT JET IGNITION YET FOR HONDA
With Formula One cars spending around 65% of a lap around Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps at full throttle, Honda upgraded its power unit in two areas ahead of the Belgian Grand Prix. The Japanese manufacturer spent seven engine development tokens on both its internal combustion engine (ICE) and turbocharger.
Like Renault, Honda has focussed its efforts on its ICE, which still trails the likes of Mercedes and Ferrari in terms of horsepower while using more fuel. Improving lean burn combustion, in a manner similar to Ferrari’s Turbo Jet Ignition (TJI), could address this weakness but the upgrade unleashed in Spa did not seem to feature the concept.
Honda, which pioneered a system of pre-chamber in the 1970s under the name of ‘Compound Vortex Controlled Combustion’ (CVCC), is considering the TJI option but has yet to integrate it, as Yusuke Hasegawa told F1i’s Chris Medland.
“As an engine company, we are always looking into new technology so this is an area we have studied,” Honda’s head of F1 project said. “Jet Ignition is one of them. It may be one option for the future, but we have not decided yet.”

http://en.f1i.com/magazine/69169-techni ... hamps.html

[Nickt9999]

Roll on 2017.....

[godlameroso]

NO TURBULENT JET IGNITION YET FOR HONDA
With Formula One cars spending around 65% of a lap around Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps at full throttle, Honda upgraded its power unit in two areas ahead of the Belgian Grand Prix. The Japanese manufacturer spent seven engine development tokens on both its internal combustion engine (ICE) and turbocharger.
Like Renault, Honda has focussed its efforts on its ICE, which still trails the likes of Mercedes and Ferrari in terms of horsepower while using more fuel. Improving lean burn combustion, in a manner similar to Ferrari’s Turbo Jet Ignition (TJI), could address this weakness but the upgrade unleashed in Spa did not seem to feature the concept.
Honda, which pioneered a system of pre-chamber in the 1970s under the name of ‘Compound Vortex Controlled Combustion’ (CVCC), is considering the TJI option but has yet to integrate it, as Yusuke Hasegawa told F1i’s Chris Medland.
“As an engine company, we are always looking into new technology so this is an area we have studied,” Honda’s head of F1 project said. “Jet Ignition is one of them. It may be one option for the future, but we have not decided yet.”

http://en.f1i.com/magazine/69169-techni ... hamps.html

So what did they change in the combustion? Did they just do timing and ignition tweaks to accommodate the new fuel, and compressor? Maybe CVCC is not exactly the same as TJI?

[Kalun]

NO TURBULENT JET IGNITION YET FOR HONDA
With Formula One cars spending around 65% of a lap around Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps at full throttle, Honda upgraded its power unit in two areas ahead of the Belgian Grand Prix. The Japanese manufacturer spent seven engine development tokens on both its internal combustion engine (ICE) and turbocharger.
Like Renault, Honda has focussed its efforts on its ICE, which still trails the likes of Mercedes and Ferrari in terms of horsepower while using more fuel. Improving lean burn combustion, in a manner similar to Ferrari’s Turbo Jet Ignition (TJI), could address this weakness but the upgrade unleashed in Spa did not seem to feature the concept.
Honda, which pioneered a system of pre-chamber in the 1970s under the name of ‘Compound Vortex Controlled Combustion’ (CVCC), is considering the TJI option but has yet to integrate it, as Yusuke Hasegawa told F1i’s Chris Medland.
“As an engine company, we are always looking into new technology so this is an area we have studied,” Honda’s head of F1 project said. “Jet Ignition is one of them. It may be one option for the future, but we have not decided yet.”

http://en.f1i.com/magazine/69169-techni ... hamps.html

Honda can't introduce TJI because they have limited space behind the current injectors as the turbo is in the V. If you can see, TJI/CVCC require a large/long chamber to fit the injector and spark plug. TJI will be reserve for 2017 as Honda going to do a layout change.

For this update, I bet they are changing the profile of the piston and the intake chamber to have a more smoother air flow into the combustion chamber. Thats why the engine sounds like it revs higher.
As i check out the onboard footage of Honda vs Mercedes for German GP. Mercedes has the low end torque which Honda doesn't have. I looks like its a bit lazy when exit from a corner. I bet that Mercedes has a torquey ERS-K to help them to exit the corner much better. Honda haven't update their ERS-K. I'm hoping that they will do it for the next update.

Both Mclaren and Honda are chasing after concepts because these concepts can be carry forward for 2017. Honda is preparing the combustion chamber concept for next year and need to test it out on the track. I can see that Honda new update is more efficient that the previous specs. Same goes to mclaren.

Heres a prediction before the season ends:
Mclaren will be bringing a new suspension setup to improve mechanical grip.
Mclaren will continue bringing a new aero update
Honda will bring a more torquey ERS-K to help with the corner exit. (Current harvesting setup is on par with mercedes)
Honda will fine tune its setup after Monza
Esso Mobil will bring a new fuel formula

I'm expecting them to get at least a podium by the end of this year. [-o< [-o<