Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

[Just_a_fan]

The Ferrari F50 had an F1 engine. Except it didn't at all in any way other than marketing.

[Jolle]

The Ferrari F50 had an F1 engine. Except it didn't at all in any way other than marketing.

Exactly. I was just thinking about that car reading that evo article.
But, on the other hand, the Mercedes PU, as a starting point, is a lot more likely then a 3,5 high rev V12 from the 90ies. "F1" inspired would probably be a better phrase, that HPP isn't building the engine but that they redesign a cilinder head for half a AMG V8 to optimise the use of a MGU-H.

A F1 PU can do now some 3.000 km, if you look at standard super bikes used on track, their lifespan is reduced by a factor 10, so a F1 PU, with small modifications, would only last for about 30.000 km (with good servicing maybe 50.000)

[SR71]

http://i.auto-bild.de/ir_img/1/7/3/0/1/ ... 519fea.jpg

Beautiful.

[FoxHound]

Lotus could do so too if they had the financial muscle of MB behind them. Lotus has never had that level of financial stability/ support. And yet they are still going and still selling cars to people who want true sports cars.

And the Russians could've won the cold war if they had the financial muscle to outdo the US of A.

Lotus chose to cater for a small market on ethos, knowing full well their existence hangs on the way the economic winds change. Much like the Russians....only without their arrogance.
Evidence of that is Lotus being wholly owned by Proton, which is the reason they are "still going".

Saying that, I'm glad they are still going, and if this project helps with their survival then I'm all for it.
I just think that the association will be tenuous at best, with Lotus being consulted for a second opinion. Unless they have a trademark magic bullet, which would change things!

[Jolle]

Lotus could do so too if they had the financial muscle of MB behind them. Lotus has never had that level of financial stability/ support. And yet they are still going and still selling cars to people who want true sports cars.

And the Russians could've won the cold war if they had the financial muscle to outdo the US of A.

Lotus chose to cater for a small market on ethos, knowing full well their existence hangs on the way the economic winds change. Much like the Russians....only without their arrogance.
Evidence of that is Lotus being wholly owned by Proton, which is the reason they are "still going".

Saying that, I'm glad they are still going, and if this project helps with their survival then I'm all for it.
I just think that the association will be tenuous at best, with Lotus being consulted for a second opinion. Unless they have a trademark magic bullet, which would change things!

I think there is a misconception that Lotus Engineering is Lotus Cars (although they have the same owner). Lotus engineering is a big engineering company who work for almost all car brands, like many brands outsource all or part of their engineering work. Big chances that the SLS already has Lotus work in it.

[Andres125sx]

Impressive!

This site claims it will be a 2 litre four cylinder engine providing around 1000bhp, toghether with two electric motors in the front wheels providing extra 150bhp each one for a total of 1300 bhp wich will move a total weight of 1300kg

They also claim active suspensions and active aero will be used


I wonder what ES they will use, type and size. 1300kg for a hybrid hypercar looks light.


BTW, if true, what do you think about their decision to go with a four cylinder? Wasn´t Mercedes (together with Ferrari) one of the manufacturers who pushed for the V6 instead of the L4 in F1? Maybe my memory sucks, but if I´m correct, it would be ironic

I'll bet that Merc-AMG have diverted a few engineers from Brackley onto this project, so the ES componentry will bear some traits to the F1 programmes own.
Tobias Moers himself has said they want to make full use of the "most energy dense hybrid pack on earth", so there's that....

As for the engine, EVO is reporting that the source that broke this story is part of the F1 team, and that at Belgium last weekend they confirmed the car would have the same engine as the W07!
There s the caveat as to how they get it working, the engine may be stretched out to a larger displacement.
http://www.evo.co.uk/news/18211/mercede ... d-hypercar

They talk about F1 PU, but also about increasing displacement to 2 liters, so not a true F1 PU actually. It obviously makes sense if you´re not going to replace the PU as frequently as F1 (each 3000km as much), but same apply to the ES, if they use a similar F1 ES, it will last similar. If you want a battery to last longer, it must be bigger and heavier

But if they go to a higher displacement engine, and a bigger ES, weight will increase noticeably and I don´t see how they will keep weigth as low as stated


I personally don´t see any sense on using a "F1 PU", apart from marketing. But these hypercars are more about marketing than anything else, so... Who need F1 power levels when DF and specially drag will never be similar because they cannot use F1 wings on any road legal car? None, just marketing so they can claim they have the biggest dick


I think Aston Martin and Red Bull approach makes more sense with a traditional ICE without electric part to get more than enough power without the hybrid weight penalty, but as stated these hypercars don´t have any sense if you analyse it from a rational point of view, so I´ll enjoy watching what do they do anycase

[FoxHound]

I think there is a misconception that Lotus Engineering is Lotus Cars (although they have the same owner). Lotus engineering is a big engineering company who work for almost all car brands, like many brands outsource all or part of their engineering work. Big chances that the SLS already has Lotus work in it.

I'm familiar with the their work via the VX220. Also that Proton split the company in 2 when they purchased it.
As for the SLS, the work on that car was already done by Chrylser....

[Jolle]

I think there is a misconception that Lotus Engineering is Lotus Cars (although they have the same owner). Lotus engineering is a big engineering company who work for almost all car brands, like many brands outsource all or part of their engineering work. Big chances that the SLS already has Lotus work in it.

I'm familiar with the their work via the VX220. Also that Proton split the company in 2 when they purchased it.
As for the SLS, the work on that car was already done by Chrylser....

Lotus did the Viper R/T, what would mean it u-turned

(and the Nissan GT-R as well)

[FoxHound]

They talk about F1 PU, but also about increasing displacement to 2 liters, so not a true F1 PU actually. It obviously makes sense if you´re not going to replace the PU as frequently as F1 (each 3000km as much), but same apply to the ES, if they use a similar F1 ES, it will last similar. If you want a battery to last longer, it must be bigger and heavier

But if they go to a higher displacement engine, and a bigger ES, weight will increase noticeably and I don´t see how they will keep weigth as low as stated


I personally don´t see any sense on using a "F1 PU", apart from marketing. But these hypercars are more about marketing than anything else, so... Who need F1 power levels when DF and specially drag will never be similar because they cannot use F1 wings on any road legal car? None, just marketing so they can claim they have the biggest dick


I think Aston Martin and Red Bull approach makes more sense with a traditional ICE without electric part to get more than enough power without the hybrid weight penalty, but as stated these hypercars don´t have any sense if you analyse it from a rational point of view, so I´ll enjoy watching what do they do anycase

The story is saying that the car will likely need a larger displacement.
I'm sure if they built a thicker block, and bore it out a bit but retained the intrinsic values of the engine other than the displacement, you are getting as close to an F1 engine as is practically possible.
That's not to say it will be 2.0 litres.

We do know that the F1 cars are limited by fuel flow, and that the production car will be rev limited for reliability.
The V6 turbo's spend most their time at 11k RPM, which is relatively not a high rate of revolutions, so perhaps scaled back from the 15k it could possibly achieve.
Honda made a 9k rpm 2 litre in 1998, and in some applications can attain 10k rpm with a bit of electronic wizardry.
20 years later, Mercedes should still be able to attain the 11k, especially in a high end product.

The turbo will likely be beefed up for reliability, boost and cooling. This and the gearbox will be the 2 areas of big difference vs the F1 car. Cooling could prove hard work, but Mercedes have a handy partnership with an American cooling company that supply the F1 team radiators.

In the end, Mercedes have not issued any press on this at all. So it's all guess work until they come out with something concrete. Hopefully Stuttgart have the balls to follow this one through, where the C111 and C112 failed to see the light of day.

[FoxHound]

Lotus did the Viper R/T, what would mean it u-turned

(and the Nissan GT-R as well)

I meant that as complete sarcasm, my apologies.(Xpensive was watching from on high)

The SLS was to my knowledge AMG's first bespoke car. I would not imagine Lotus being involved with that.

[Jolle]

Lotus did the Viper R/T, what would mean it u-turned

(and the Nissan GT-R as well)

I meant that as complete sarcasm, my apologies.(Xpensive was watching from on high)

The SLS was to my knowledge AMG's first bespoke car. I would not imagine Lotus being involved with that.

Hahaha

Well, on the other hand, I would be surprised if they didn't. See it as an audit.

[Jolle]

They talk about F1 PU, but also about increasing displacement to 2 liters, so not a true F1 PU actually. It obviously makes sense if you´re not going to replace the PU as frequently as F1 (each 3000km as much), but same apply to the ES, if they use a similar F1 ES, it will last similar. If you want a battery to last longer, it must be bigger and heavier

But if they go to a higher displacement engine, and a bigger ES, weight will increase noticeably and I don´t see how they will keep weigth as low as stated


I personally don´t see any sense on using a "F1 PU", apart from marketing. But these hypercars are more about marketing than anything else, so... Who need F1 power levels when DF and specially drag will never be similar because they cannot use F1 wings on any road legal car? None, just marketing so they can claim they have the biggest dick


I think Aston Martin and Red Bull approach makes more sense with a traditional ICE without electric part to get more than enough power without the hybrid weight penalty, but as stated these hypercars don´t have any sense if you analyse it from a rational point of view, so I´ll enjoy watching what do they do anycase

The story is saying that the car will likely need a larger displacement.
I'm sure if they built a thicker block, and bore it out a bit but retained the intrinsic values of the engine other than the displacement, you are getting as close to an F1 engine as is practically possible.
That's not to say it will be 2.0 litres.

We do know that the F1 cars are limited by fuel flow, and that the production car will be rev limited for reliability.
The V6 turbo's spend most their time at 11k RPM, which is relatively not a high rate of revolutions, so perhaps scaled back from the 15k it could possibly achieve.
Honda made a 9k rpm 2 litre in 1998, and in some applications can attain 10k rpm with a bit of electronic wizardry.
20 years later, Mercedes should still be able to attain the 11k, especially in a high end product.

The turbo will likely be beefed up for reliability, boost and cooling. This and the gearbox will be the 2 areas of big difference vs the F1 car. Cooling could prove hard work, but Mercedes have a handy partnership with an American cooling company that supply the F1 team radiators.

In the end, Mercedes have not issued any press on this at all. So it's all guess work until they come out with something concrete. Hopefully Stuttgart have the balls to follow this one through, where the C111 and C112 failed to see the light of day.

BMW has a 250cc per cilinder 100.000 km durable 14.000 rpm engine with valve springs with 200hp/l without a turbo and no cooling problems (on the s1000rr).
Durability isn't really a problem, it's the last few % of tuning that do almost all of the harm, if you tune it to, for instance, 750 instead of 800hp or 200 kg instead of 180kh, you will have a durable engine (for a hyper car at least)

Like I said before, road use is so different then racing, if you take the 100.000 km durable BMW on track, you can bin the engine within 10.000 km.

A les mans engine would easily, without modifications, last as long as a normal sports car engine.

[diego.liv]

2016 Paris Auto Show is scheduled for 1st to 16th October
http://www.carscoops.com/2016/09/merced ... paris.html

[graham.reeds]

Just dust off a CLK GTR, put the engine in the back and be done with it...

[diego.liv]

Hint of the car?