Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[loner]

. "Now we just need to find power of the internal combustion engine without us compromising our electric power. And that is the supreme art, "said team boss Eric Boullier.

AMUS: http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 30299.html

so that is Mercedes secret he talked about previously and not only Merc's version of JTI!!

[NL_Fer]

Isn't the maximum deployment a choice for any team? Honda has the ability to choose to harvest enough, but maybe other teams already much further. I think others are sacrificing some deployment, so the need less energy to harvest, which is more available to the crankshaft.

For example, open the wastegate on the beginning of the straight for a second. This will cause less mgu-h harvesting, but increased crankshaft power.

[PlatinumZealot]

Optimizing the software brings a whole lot because the Power unit's energy management is programmed to the track being raced on. How it harvest, deploys, the throttle response etc. The peak power is more or less whatever they can squeeze out on the dyno, but the dynamics of drive ability and energy management is tuned to each circuit. They turn the wick up if things look good after some laps.

Why wouldn't you look to optimise much of that on a whole-powertrain dynamic dyno with models of each circuit and enjoy the benefits as early as possible?

You seem to know more than me about those things! I recall they do have that, (now that you mention it) because at the time hasegawa mentioned that their dyno track sim for hockenheim missled them and they had awful driveability and nasty fuel consumption in the race. They since reviewed the parameters in their software to better tune the PU.

[trinidefender]

Just my musings but maybe part of their claims of being the best when it comes to electrical energy comes from Honda being the least powerful ICE.

What I mean is that the Honda ICE converts the lowest percentage of fuel into power from the ICE side. Therefore the rest of the energy has to either mechanical friction, go out the exhaust pipe or into the block and cooling system as heat.

If the Honda ICE has more energy leaving the cylinders out the exhaust that means that the exhaust turbine (and MGU-H) potentially has more energy to recover.

This is of course base thinking and downed the take into account the other two places where the remaining energy goes or using a higher PR turbine (higher "back pressure" {whatever that is lol} turbine for higher recovery and hurting ICE performance) or anything else.

[Brian Coat]

Trinidefender: I think you could well be right, and even if they could increase ICE efficiency they may not have much joy until they can get a bigger turbo fitted, because ...

Increased ICE efficiency will shift the work split to the ICE and done in isolation, this could actually degrade lap time (Cosworth published simulations of this years ago). The way to swing the work split back (to ensure adequate MGU-H harvest and high ICE efficiency) is to increase boost/AFR, which requires a bigger compressor and turbine - and, incidentally puts even more challenge to the combustion system.

So they may need a big combustion system upgrade and a comletely new MGU-H set-up, which sounds like a 2017 deal?

What do people think?

[bobobaba]

So they may need a big combustion system upgrade and a comletely new MGU-H set-up, which sounds like a 2017 deal?

What do people think?

Very often I think Honda should have spent this huge amount of F1 money to support, develop the european distributors, train sales teams,teach business intelligence, use more effective marketing, etc. to increase Honda market share in EU. New Civic stands at the door and it will be unsuccessful in spite of the good product . As we saw many many many times in Honda products.

On the other hand I love to see Honda in the F1 where highest level engineering, techonolgy and pilots meet eachother. It is important to learn and I just hope that they will be the first who can apply these techologies in commercial cars.
And the race today was a clean message:there is a long way to reach the top. Hasegawa san is right:2-3 years to reach Merc level. Hope: Monza is only one track and top speed means nothing.
I think it would be better to choose Merc layout(turbo, compr) for 2017 than the traditional one. Maybe 2015 experiences help to make it compact size.

I hoped that Spa tokens brings prechamber system aand by Monza it will be a more competitive car. Not happened, and this is a big disappointment for me. I hope that end of the year will bring at least one podium.

[haza]

Now the token system has been lifted will the manufacturers be able to develop there engine as much as they want if so i think it would bring Honda on par with merc assuming no other team overtakes them

[SameSame]

Massive kudo's to Honda. They may not be the best but I don't think anyone would have thought last year that they would be much ahead of the 2015 Ferrari engine in 2016. They probably have as much power this year as Mercedes did last year which is incredible. The rate of development is just crazy with these PUs.

[mwillems]

Now the token system has been lifted will the manufacturers be able to develop there engine as much as they want if so i think it would bring Honda on par with merc assuming no other team overtakes them

Yes this is true. I wouldn't describe it as make or break but... next year there are no excuses (rules)for not having the technology required to deliver a high level of performance. If they don't, then it is certain that tensions will grow, certainly between Alonso and the team.

On another note, did it surprise anyone that the Honda was harvesting much earlier on the main straight than others? Knowing that harvesting can affect the performance of the car, how much of a double edged sword is it that not only do you not have the same power generated from the ICE as the other cars, but that due to that the car harvests earlier, and possibly more, slowing it further?

I guess that if the ICE had more power, or the harvesting was more efficient then not only would the car be faster, but there would be less time spent with harvesting impeding performance, no? Seems like it is the proverbial football six pointer.

[PhillipM]

It's always more beneficial to deploy the power at the beginning of a straight than the end of it, so if you have the capacity to harvest more then it makes sense to do it earlier on the end of the straight.

[honda_fun]

Honda PU at Spa Francorchamps circuit, photo by japanese f1 reporter, Mr.Yoneya, showed that was almost same layout at from last year. Last3token will may be used for JTI at Malaysia GP.

[Roostfactor]

Honda_fun, that is a very cool pic...thanks for sharing!

[Brian Coat]

Now the token system has been lifted will the manufacturers be able to develop there engine as much as they want if so i think it would bring Honda on par with merc assuming no other team overtakes them

In theory, another factor to even things up is 18:1 CR limit?

If this is limited, won't the scope for overall pressure ratio increase (boost & CR) be constrained by lack of useful expansion ratio, assuming that useful MGU-H expansion power is largely limited by MGU-K limits? I'm not certain about this.

Honda have not even reached this chapter yet but they seem to be moving fast, so in 2017 they might surprise us.

[mclaren111]

Honda_fun:
Honda PU at Spa Francorchamps circuit, photo by japanese f1 reporter, Mr.Yoneya, showed that was almost same layout at from last year. Last3token will may be used for JTI at Malaysia GP.

But it's a much better "organized" & "cleaner" setup than 2015 !! =D> =D> =D>

[taperoo2k]

Honda_fun:
Honda PU at Spa Francorchamps circuit, photo by japanese f1 reporter, Mr.Yoneya, showed that was almost same layout at from last year. Last3token will may be used for JTI at Malaysia GP.

But it's a much better "organized" & "cleaner" setup than 2015 !! =D> =D> =D>

Looks like it's been a careful evolution of Honda's concept compared to the chaos of 2015.
With a much freer hand in PU development in 2017 I expect Honda will make steady gains, I doubt
they'll come out of the box in winter testing with a Mercedes beating Power Unit (that would take
a miracle).