Mclaren Confess!

[allan]

I tried to locate the old topic, but i cant find it anywhere!:shock:
"The McLaren Formula 1 team surprised a few as it published a statement late Thursday afternoon that it became clear to the team that that Ferrari information was more widely disseminated within McLaren than was previously communicated. In McLaren's statement the team furthermore apologises and regrets that these things has happened within its team.

The full statement of the team said:
As a result of the investigations carried out by the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile it has become clear that Ferrari information was more widely disseminated within McLaren than was previously communicated. McLaren greatly regrets that its own investigations did not identify this material and has written to the World Motor Sport Council to apologise for this.

McLaren has written a letter to the FIA which in the interests of transparency it is publishing with this press statement. That letter speaks for itself and the sentiments expressed in it are sincerely held by McLaren. McLaren has also written to the World Motor Sport Council to apologise that it has taken an FIA investigation to find this information and have expressed our deep regret that our understanding of the facts was improved as a result of the FIA inspection rather than our own investigations. McLaren has recognised that this entire situation could have been avoided if we had informed Ferrari and the FIA about Nigel Stepney's first communication when it came to our attention. We are, of course, embarrassed by the successive disclosures and have apologised unreservedly to the FIA World Motor Sport Council.

To avoid even the possibility of Ferrari information influencing our performance during 2008, McLaren has offered a set of detailed undertakings to the FIA which will impose a moratorium on development in relation to three separate systems. During the course of these incidents, McLaren has conducted a thorough review of its policies and procedures regarding the recruitment and management of staff. The proposals arising from this thorough review have been disclosed to the FIA and McLaren has agreed to demonstrate that all of these policies and procedures have been fully implemented.

McLaren wish to make a public apology to the FIA, Ferrari, the Formula 1 community and to Formula 1 fans throughout the world and offer their assurance that changes are now being made which will ensure that nothing comparable to what has taken place will ever happen again. McLaren have also agreed to pay the costs incurred by the FIA for their investigation.

McLaren now wishes to put these matters behind it and to move forward focusing on the 2008 season."
Source:
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/12/ ... rari-info/

[manchild]

First fish took the bait, next please

[bettonracing]

The non-Ferrari fans (who've seemingly united to support Mclaren...) may argue that the mafia was basically 'strongarming' Mclaren and now that they're under financial pressure, they've decided to bite the bullet and 'confess' to the mafia (and possibly resume the battle later?...).

Ferrari fans will jump in joy at the opportunity to help the non-Ferrari fans 'insert foot in mouth' after all the arguments about "No evidence found! Unfair!".

For all we know, Mclaren has something up their sleeve w/ the ECU that they can afford to lose a tenth or 2 per lap w/ the moratorium because they've gained 3 tenths or more w/ the ECU?... [/conspiracy theory]

(unfortunately they've lost 0.6s w/ Alonso... )

Kurt

P.S. Sorry Allan. I may have just quarantined your thread...

[Ciro Pabón]

I'm not a Ferrari fan, nor I am a non-Ferrari fan, but quite the opposite.

I think McLaren is, in first place, guilty of spying. What more proof do you want? A written affidavit by Coughlan? Recordings of the 174 (or whatever the number) phone calls? This kind of industrial spying is a no-no where I work: you don't get "operational" information unless you're a crook.

Besides, McLaren and Renault are guilty of hiring designers that "brought" with them designs from other team. Renault, at least, hired the guy with the plans, we don't know what kind of deal Coughlan and Stepney had.

I believe this happens at any industry: I wouldn't be able to count how many times an engineer has brought with him designs to my workplace. You don't use them often: you have your own designs and, besides, every workshop I know has a little pride. So, if FIA could investigate other teams, they would find, probably, similar situations. Don't come to me arguing you've never, ever, left a firm and that you did not have on your PC the designs you helped to create...

I also believe that the first fault, that is, "operational" spying, falls under the laws for industrial espionage. The second fault (employees bringing in competitors designs), for me, is more a thing that should be dealt with through engineering code of ethics: after all, these designs are not patented. The code recognizes the fact that you need permission to "use" or "disclose" the information, it does not forbid you to knowing it or having it. For example:

Canadian Engineering Ethics Code:

3.06.03. An engineer shall not make use of confidential information to the prejudice of a client or with a view to deriving, directly or indirectly, an advantage for himself or for another person.

3.06.04. An engineer shall not accept a mandate which entails or may entail the disclosure or use of confidential information or documents obtained from another client without the latter's consent.

Finally, I think that the fact that McLaren bring to the public light this kind of statement indicates something else is going on. I wait for FIA press release.

[Fridge13]

Besides, McLaren and Renault are guilty of hiring designers that "brought" with them designs from other team. Renault, at least, hired the guy with the plans, we don't know what kind of deal Coughlan and Stepney had.

I believe this happens at any industry: I wouldn't be able to count how many times an engineer has brought with him designs to my workplace. You don't use them often: you have your own designs and, besides, every workshop I know has a little pride. So, if FIA could investigate other teams, they would find, probably, similar situations. Don't come to me arguing you've never, ever, left a firm and that you did not have on your PC the designs you helped to create...

Surely when you hire someone from another team, even if they dont take physical or digital information, they would remember a lot of concepts and up and coming designs of their previous employer. Does this constitute theft of intellectual property?

where do you draw the line?

[bhall]

That's not bait; that's McLaren trying - again - to stay ahead of a story in which they got caught with their pants down - again.

This is just for display. We've seen this before when Ron Dennis spoke tearfully about integrity and whatnot, because he was trying to win the battle of public opinion. But when the facts came out, and the FIA found his team guilty of espionage, Dennis didn't appeal, as someone who's innocent surely would; he just quietly agreed to pay the fine for the sake of "moving forward." Simply put: he had been caught and needed this story to go away.

Now he's saying, in essence: "Maybe if we apologize and say we won't do it again, they won't throw us out of next season."

Trust me on this, I believe Ron Dennis would throw a world-class tantrum had he truly known that no part of his 2008 challenger would have Ferrari heritage. Instead, he's forced to be humble in hopes McLaren don't lose everything.

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, I'm not sure about Mr. Dennis qualities, he might be sincere. About where the line is drawn, I think that at the use or disclosure. Anyway, I just came back to post this, that shows that many people could do the same as the Renault employee (and now, after McLaren submits its 2008 designs for review to FIA, imagine the crowd that will see them):

[ben_watkins]

http://www.fia.com/public/mclaren.pdf

Full FIA report link

[Principessa]

All online here as well in the newssection

I have to admit that at first I believed McLaren, but the more we find out, the more I believe that Dennis and the rest of McLaren is very good in lying to people's face! Where is his credibility?? Dennis should better quit in my opinion...

[fizzer]

Surely when you hire someone from another team, even if they dont take physical or digital information, they would remember a lot of concepts and up and coming designs of their previous employer. Does this constitute theft of intellectual property?

where do you draw the line?

Almost any technical profession nowadays (at least in the US) requires NDAs (Non-disclosure agreements) to be signed by the employee upon hiring. The construct of these can vary, but generally they mean "If we find out that you've disclosed proprietary company IP to anyone, we're allowed to sue the pants off you".

I'd be very surprised to learn if F1 engineers don't sign some seriously restrictive NDAs.

[ben_watkins]

From what I've read in the report, here are some conclusions.

McLaren have developed a brake bias/engine brake adjustment system similar to that used by Ferrari. It is set in the cockpit and defaults when the car pulls out of the corner. It is intended to be used on the 2008 car.

McLaren tried CO2 inflated tyres, after they learnt Ferrari fill their tyres with CO2 instead of NO2, to reduce internal temp/blistering. The test was unsucessful and so they have resorted to using NO2.

The new 2008 McLaren car has a longer wheelbase than before - this doesn't seem like a consequence of Ferrari's longer wheelbased F2007. It could be seen as an evolution, to enhance layout, turn angle, weight distribution etc.

More than a few people in McLaren knew all about the Ferrari data - This seems very similar to the Renault spy case. Although Renault don't seem to have understood some of the McLaren data, inc the "J damper" etc.

Any information they got on the Ferrari [in particular] was liable to testing either on the simulator, or in tests. This is nothing new. Everyone does it down the F1 pitlane and other pitlanes. Remember how Michael Shumacher used to get out of his Ferrari [usually after winning ] and inspect the other cars, such as Kimi's Macca? Looking in the cockpit, at the wings, the diffuser etc.. The news this week from Pat Symonds, that Fernando Alonso is "not technical" might be why we don't see FA looking around other cars that have been competative in a race with him.

For now, I am glad that the line has been drawn on this subject. The FIA wanted a grovelling apollogy from McLaren. They've got it. No doubt the subject will not be put to bed, on this forum, or in the courts. The FIA are looking to punish Martin Brundle for his descenting comments in the Sunday Times about this whole affair.

Shame. The FIA, in my opinion, have been very inconsistant with the handling of these two cases. I really hope they don't curtail MB's access at future F1 meetings, or remove his acreditation, as he is a real asset to F1 reporting and presenting of the sport to millions of people who don't give a flying toss about the politics of the sport.

[Rob W]

I tend to think the FIA have, all along, wanted McLaren to admit publicly what they did. Throughout the entire thing the admissions of guilt or impropriety by McLaren have been pretty subdued or included excuses.

Perhaps Max just said to them: admit it publicly for the sake of public respect for F1's ability to manage it's own business.. and we'll end our hounding of you.

It makes sense and lets everyone move forward. They couldn't continue into next season with Max coming out every 2nd week saying "I don't hate Ron" but still acting like he's out to bury McLaren. (Max really is a PR nightmare and an all-round twat)

Rob W

[megz]

@ Ben_watkins, how do you know the 2008 McMerc has a longer wheelbase. The thing probably hasn't even finished being built.

[modbaraban]

@ Ben_watkins, how do you know the 2008 McMerc has a longer wheelbase. The thing probably hasn't even finished being built.

Such things as wheelbase length are decided quite early. But...

@ ben_watkins
How come you know that?

[ben_watkins]

Paragraph 107.3 - FIA report http://www.fia.com/public/mclaren.pdf