Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

I'm speaking in relative terms, the other manufacturers have much larger compressors, they need far fewer shaft rpm to reach the desired boost, even if your pre-spool the turbo the more shaft revs you need to get the desired PR the longer it's going to take relative to other manufacturers that use larger compressors. And this is even more so if you have a compressor with a wide operating window as opposed to a small compressor with a narrower operating window like Honda have.

[gruntguru]

I wouldn't be assuming any of that from the little we know. The only thing we can be sure of is the Honda turbo has a smaller flow capacity. I would guess in the region of 5-10% less.

Smaller turbos with higher rpm do not make an engine more "peaky" btw.

[godlameroso]

Peaky isn't the best word I could have used, let's say the small compressor is not as efficient as a larger one in this instance. It definitely builds boost differently, where a larger compressor may have a smoother curve, this one is full of anomalies at higher PR.

It sort of ties into why McLaren isn't all that amazing at low speed traction limited sections. The car is fine in the midrange120-280kph mid speed corners, it's not so good outside that window.

[Muulka]

Like I said, none of that really matters; the compressor speed can be extremely accurately tuned with the MGU-H. If they're having issues such as you suspect they are, the problem is all down to control electronics and software.

Frankly, the things they're saying (coupled with a particular fact I know about a competitor's engine which I don't believe is common knowledge) suggest to me that part of their problem is that their turbine is too big/powerful and they're harvesting too much energy and putting a ton of pack-pressure on the engine. Would explain why they think their deployment is so good; Honda seem to focus far too much on improving one thing which they think is the problem, then realising that that didn't magically fix everything, so they move onto another part of the engine, each time expecting a magic bullet. These engines are all about finding compromises between the different components. Honda seem to not have quite realised that yet

[godlameroso]

I think they have, or at least that's what I've been told. I do agree that they could improve the mapping. Next round is Malaysia, will be interesting to see if they introduce the upgrade then, or if they wait until COTA. With only one week between Malaysia and Suzuka, if they can't introduce the upgrade by then they're going to have to wait. I doubt that Honda wants to ruin their race by taking engine penalties, especially since it's pretty hard to pass there.

[hurril]

Like I said, none of that really matters; the compressor speed can be extremely accurately tuned with the MGU-H. If they're having issues such as you suspect they are, the problem is all down to control electronics and software.

Frankly, the things they're saying (coupled with a particular fact I know about a competitor's engine which I don't believe is common knowledge) suggest to me that part of their problem is that their turbine is too big/powerful and they're harvesting too much energy and putting a ton of pack-pressure on the engine. Would explain why they think their deployment is so good; Honda seem to focus far too much on improving one thing which they think is the problem, then realising that that didn't magically fix everything, so they move onto another part of the engine, each time expecting a magic bullet. These engines are all about finding compromises between the different components. Honda seem to not have quite realised that yet

This just comes across like wanting to show off. What fact is this? You might as well say it if you're going to mention knowing something about it.

[Muulka]

Gone

[hurril]

Like I said, none of that really matters; the compressor speed can be extremely accurately tuned with the MGU-H. If they're having issues such as you suspect they are, the problem is all down to control electronics and software.

Frankly, the things they're saying (coupled with a particular fact I know about a competitor's engine which I don't believe is common knowledge) suggest to me that part of their problem is that their turbine is too big/powerful and they're harvesting too much energy and putting a ton of pack-pressure on the engine. Would explain why they think their deployment is so good; Honda seem to focus far too much on improving one thing which they think is the problem, then realising that that didn't magically fix everything, so they move onto another part of the engine, each time expecting a magic bullet. These engines are all about finding compromises between the different components. Honda seem to not have quite realised that yet

This just comes across like wanting to show off. What fact is this? You might as well say it if you're going to mention knowing something about it.

If I give any more info I'm liable to lose my job if anyone identifies me. So no, I'm going to pass on that.

I mentioned my knowledge (and I did do a fairly extensive Google search to see if it was mentioned anywhere- it's definitely relevant) just to reinforce that I'm not just BS-ing. I want to give interested people a little bit more of an insight, but I have to be careful!

Ha! This has me intrigued.

[godlameroso]

Like I said, none of that really matters; the compressor speed can be extremely accurately tuned with the MGU-H. If they're having issues such as you suspect they are, the problem is all down to control electronics and software.

Frankly, the things they're saying (coupled with a particular fact I know about a competitor's engine which I don't believe is common knowledge) suggest to me that part of their problem is that their turbine is too big/powerful and they're harvesting too much energy and putting a ton of pack-pressure on the engine. Would explain why they think their deployment is so good; Honda seem to focus far too much on improving one thing which they think is the problem, then realising that that didn't magically fix everything, so they move onto another part of the engine, each time expecting a magic bullet. These engines are all about finding compromises between the different components. Honda seem to not have quite realised that yet

I have to question this, simply because if they're experiencing so much backpressure, they can always open the wastegates to acheive what they want. I await your explanation via PM.

[NL_Fer]

What i find strange is this years rave about Honda's deployment. I know it sucked in 2015, but a proper engine is not about how much deployment you have, but how much harvesting you need to do and how many seconds you can run with open wastegate.

But again they were much better in the race than qually, so overall efficiency must me good this year. So it's down to absolute peak power i suspect.

[Muulka]

Gone

[henry]

What i find strange is this years rave about Honda's deployment. I know it sucked in 2015, but a proper engine is not about how much deployment you have, but how much harvesting you need to do and how many seconds you can run with open wastegate.

But again they were much better in the race than qually, so overall efficiency must me good this year. So it's down to absolute peak power i suspect.

Opening the wastegate uses a lot of energy, as you have to supply the full 120 kW to the MGUH. I seriously doubt that any of the teams are running with any significant wastegate opening in the race at least (with the exception of somewhere like Monaco where there's so much braking). Qualifying is another story, however.

I don't think the compressor needs 120 kW, I'm pretty sure I've seen a figure around 80 kW. And I believe the wastegates are arranged so that the kinetic, impulse, energy continues to be recovered supplying some of that 80 kW. So the MGU-H power drain will be considerably less than 120 kW, maybe half, albeit there will be some drain to deal with spooling up.

[NL_Fer]

120kw mgu-k + 60-80kw mgu-h to drive the turbine actually. But maybe for a straight like China, i can be usefull to do it for a few seconds at the beginning of the straight.

[Mansell89]

Is there much clarity (at least in the public domain) around whether Honda will change the engine layout in 2017 toward the more 'conventional' layout adopted by Mercedes?

Have they simply been barking up the wrong tree with their alternative layouts and ideas or are there some comparable benefits that are not obvious to the public eye?

(Help a layman out guys)

[henry]

120kw mgu-k + 60-80kw mgu-h to drive the turbine actually. But maybe for a straight like China, i can be usefull to do it for a few seconds at the beginning of the straight.

If by turbine you mean compressor I think we agree.