Brake 'issues'

[f1316]

So this interests me:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... re-828326/

Is there an argument for brakes - and everything that surrounds them - being a standardised part, built large and robust enough to handle an entire race distance at any track? If and when the tyres are fixed to allow more pushing throughout the race, would it not be a shame if teams are designing cars' brakes in such a way as to keep lift and coast on the tips of our tongues. Removing ability to design an advantage out of this could remove the issue.

Would that be a good thing? Would we be moving an interesting field of development? Or is it like tyres where you want a control part?

I haven't given it much thought, just occurred to me when reading the article.

[turbof1]

So this interests me:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... re-828326/

Is there an argument for brakes - and everything that surrounds them - being a standardised part, built large and robust enough to handle an entire race distance at any track? If and when the tyres are fixed to allow more pushing throughout the race, would it not be a shame if teams are designing cars' brakes in such a way as to keep lift and coast on the tips of our tongues. Removing ability to design an advantage out of this could remove the issue.

Would that be a good thing? Would we be moving an interesting field of development? Or is it like tyres where you want a control part?

I haven't given it much thought, just occurred to me when reading the article.

The issue is not just the brake itself - it's how it is cooled. And there are many factors playing in that: brake drum, brake ducts, flow management from the front wing,.. .

[zac510]

It would be a damn shame to standardise the brakes. I don't think brakes are an exceptionally interesting area, but I would prefer to retain the diversity of design amongst the cars.

I'd rather think that Mercedes made a bit of a mistake with their brake design, rather than think that lift and coast is a negative thing that we should eradicate. Yesterday's race could have played out in many other ways, for example if Ros and Ham were 1st and 2nd, they might have pushed each other into a total brake failure.

If you (not you f1316, but any person) go around thinking that everything like tyres, fuel limits, points penalties is depriving you of seeing a spectacle, then you are really setting yourself up for disappointment because you'll never see the end of that argument. There'll always be the next mechanical problem or rule problem that will leave you disappointed. At some point you just need to accept the race for what it is. This is a rare point on which I disagree with Brundle.

[bhall II]

If and when the tyres are fixed to allow more pushing throughout the race...

...the brakes will be redesigned to accommodate the increased performance afforded by such tires.

[turbof1]

If and when the tyres are fixed to allow more pushing throughout the race...

...the brakes will be redesigned to accommodate the increased performance afforded by such tires.

Exactly. The way the brakes are cooled nowadays, is a compromise between optimal brake performance and optimal aerodynamic performance. It is nothing more or nothing less then natural evolution pushed by competition. I don't think it is possible to solve it through standarization (you'd need to standarize a whole lot of parts before you have eliminated any potential brake performance being leveraged for aerodynamic performance).

[bhall II]

There's nothing to solve.

Mercedes' view is that there's no need to develop a brake system that's capable of being pushed every lap, because it's not possible to push the tires every lap. However, that logic will not hold given tires that can be pushed every lap.

[turbof1]

There's nothing to solve.

Mercedes' view is that there's no need to develop a brake system that's capable of being pushed every lap, because it's not possible to push the tires every lap. However, that logic will not hold given tires that can be pushed every lap.

I still think there would be an aerodynamic tradeoff even if tyres could be pushed lap after lap. But that is conjecture.

[strad]

Admit it ... All this lift and coast is the antithesis of racing.. especially F1 racing.

[f1316]

To be clear, I said "brakes - and everything that surrounds them"; I was thinking drums/ducts etc. Obviously if these were standardised to the point to allow a lot of air in - to account for all scenarios - I think the teams wouldn't have to worry too much about *trying* to divert air to the ducts...perhaps I'm wrong.

Bhall's point is a good one though - as I say, I hadn't given it much thought, just read the article and wanted to throw it out there for discussion - and goes to show how the tyre issues compounds right down the chain.

Brings up another thought though: most teams will have very little to go on for next year's tyres; supposedly, according to Pirelli, even those testing them will have no idea how they will behave; do you make the same design choices, assuming brake management still quicker than over race distance than compromising on aero for sake of a margin of comfort? Or do you play conservative, given these tyres are such an unknown quantity (in theory)?

Still going to be former but interesting conundrum perhaps.

[NL_Fer]

It's not the brakes, it's the aerodynamics around the cooling and it looks like everything on the Mercedes is totally optimized to the limit.

[langwadt]

There's nothing to solve.

Mercedes' view is that there's no need to develop a brake system that's capable of being pushed every lap, because it's not possible to push the tires every lap. However, that logic will not hold given tires that can be pushed every lap.

I still think there would be an aerodynamic tradeoff even if tyres could be pushed lap after lap. But that is conjecture.

maybe the operating window for brake temperature is simply so small that it'll always be a compromise with fixed cooling ducts? Trying to keep the brakes hot enough to work and cold enough to last while the car loses 100kg in fuel might not be
easy and if it all has to work double duty as tire heaters I can see why it can get quite tricky to get just right

[zac510]

I think if we'd had control brakes in Singapore then it would have been a clear Mercedes 1-2, but if Rosberg had just been a bit harder on brakes earlier in the race and worn the brakes more, perhaps he would have struggled a bit more in the last 5 laps.

I really think that having this variation during races is the important thing when it comes to making an exciting race. While some people say that lift and coast is the antithesis of racing, the real issues are actually stable suspension, reliable engines, consistent and risk averse and radio coached drivers. All those things prevent mistakes from being made by drivers and stop cars hvaing different speeds at different times of the race.
It's noble to wish for all the top cars to be able to go flat out for the whole race but if they actually do and there's no variation between their speeds then it's just processional. Thus we really should encourage variation inbetween cars, circuits, tyres, driving styles and other such factors.

[bhall II]

The real reason to standardize braking systems is to force the use of materials that lengthen braking distances, thereby increasing the chances for overtaking - not something I advocate at all.

Otherwise, I struggle to imagine how the benefits of any brake-related aero trickery can even remotely approach the advantage of being able to push every lap. So, I see no reason to worry about the proliferation of lift and coast brakes, because any team that employs such a design, despite the availability of proper racing tires, will most likely be annihilated by teams whose designs match the capability of said tires.

I think Mercedes' current strategy is an anomaly enabled by shitty tires (and bored engineers).

[sosic2121]

Lift and coast is a part of F1. It always has been. Teams are not fuel saving because of 100kg limit, but because cars are faster over the race distance if they start underfueled.
If any component of a car can last longer than it has, then you've wasting performance, Mercedes pushed their car to the limit.

Last year, they had to do 5 races per PU. Rosberg had to do race 6 in monza and it exploded. Perfect!