Dear "Sir" Ron

manchild · Post 18 Dec 2007, 02:58

Giblet wrote:Welcome back ManChild. You were one of the reasons I kept reading this forum, and knew you'd be back.

Cheers, and don't F-Off again,

Giblet

Thank you

Belatti · Post 18 Dec 2007, 15:58

Its OK Mod, just wanted to point out that Fangio and Senna episodes are somehow respectable and there where valid reasons to support those desicions.
Thats not the case of 2002 Austrian GP.

DaveKillens · Post 18 Dec 2007, 20:17

I'm still waiting for Todt to apologize for his actions at the 1997 European GP at Jerez, where he went into the Sauber (who were using Ferrari engines at that time) motorhome to order the drivers to block Villeneuve.
Talk about low down, unethical behavior.

And it destroyed the GP career of Norberto Fontana.

manchild · Post 18 Dec 2007, 21:40

Oh I forgot about that one

jddh1 · Post 19 Dec 2007, 07:18

Oh, come on. Don't you remember that Schu broke his leg at Silverstone in 1999 and lost his chances of winning the championship? Say he finished second in Austria in 2002, then broke his leg the next race. Well, if that had happened he might have not have been world champion perhaps by 2 pts. See, I think that if you ask any driver to just finish second all year in all races and that might help them win the title, they would say, "what if I get into an accident and then I'm not able to finish anywhere? let me get as many points as I can so I may have a cushion in the eventual possibility that this scenario might realize."
So don't make the excuse about Schu having a big lead already before Austria and say he should have just given up the points. Come on now, these drivers are ruthless, all of them, else they would not have been in F1.

bizadfar · Post 19 Dec 2007, 10:41

jddh1 wrote:Oh, come on. Don't you remember that Schu broke his leg at Silverstone in 1999 and lost his chances of winning the championship? Say he finished second in Austria in 2002, then broke his leg the next race. Well, if that had happened he might have not have been world champion perhaps by 2 pts. See, I think that if you ask any driver to just finish second all year in all races and that might help them win the title, they would say, "what if I get into an accident and then I'm not able to finish anywhere? let me get as many points as I can so I may have a cushion in the eventual possibility that this scenario might realize."
So don't make the excuse about Schu having a big lead already before Austria and say he should have just given up the points. Come on now, these drivers are ruthless, all of them, else they would not have been in F1.

To add to that, they had a really good opportunity to get the record WDC confirmed in least number of races.

DaveKillens · Post 19 Dec 2007, 15:14

Since we're going to re-examine the Austrian fiasco, my two centimes.
The Ferrari team did order Reubens to back off and hand the win to Schumacher. The team argued that it was necessary because they were in a title race and every point counts. I agree that from that perspective that's true. But there were fans there, people who paid a tidy sum of their hard-earned cash to watch a motor race. Instead, what they witnessed was a fix, where the winner was pre-selected. People, people, people, and teams. Never forget that the sport is all about the fans. The teams don't exist so they can be served by the fans. Instead, the teams exist to support a motor race, which serves the fans. Gezz whiz, if the outcome is fixed, why even show up and pay? Ferrari should just ask the fans to mail in cheques, because they really don't give a crap about the fans, it's just their perspective and their own personal rewards that they care about. I used to be an open Ferrari fan, but ever since Austria, I cannot and will not support a team that doesn't give a crap about their fans.

manchild · Post 19 Dec 2007, 16:39

Not every team is as calculated and ruthless and not every team uses team orders to secure championship.

Season 1997: 17 GP races in calendar. Jacques Villeneuve in close battle with Schuey for WDC. Heinz-Harald Frentzen is Villeneuve's teammate - not a second driver.

French GP - Heinz-Harald Frentzen 2nd Jacques Villeneuve 4th
Belgian GP - Heinz-Harald Frentzen 3rd Jacques Villeneuve 5th
Italian GP - Heinz-Harald Frentzen 3rd Jacques Villeneuve 5th
Japan GP - Heinz-Harald Frentzen 2nd Jacques Villeneuve 5th

Sir Frank could have ordered Frentzen to let Villeneuve overtake him but he didn't and that's why Frank Williams is Sir Frank Williams and Jean Todt is just Jean Todt.

If he used team orders Villeneuve would have become champion before last race at Jerez. Think about that. That's sport. What Ferrari does is ruthless and soulless business.

Now look up for Schuey's Ferrari career and find me how many times was his teammate positioned better in a race where they both finished. That's why Ferrari-Schuey titles are just scores with nothing nice to be remembered by.

Ciro Pabón · Post 19 Dec 2007, 17:05

Weeeelllll, Dave, you're right, as usual. However, look where that approach took McLaren in 2007. I don't think you are in a sport for the fans: that's too "populist" to my taste. I'm in racing to enjoy it. Blame it on "sunny South America"...

checkered · Post 19 Dec 2007, 17:34

manchild wrote:Sir Frank could have ordered Frentzen to let Villeneuve overtake him but he didn't and that's why Frank Williams is Sir Frank Williams and Jean Todt is just Jean Todt.

That reminded me

about the unlikely combination of Todt being a Malaysian "datuk seri" and his lady friend Yeoh being a French "chevalier" (Légion d'honneur). You couldn't make this stuff up.

DaveKillens · Post 19 Dec 2007, 17:47

Heck, Max's father's full name is "Sir Oswald Ernald Mosley, 6th Baronet ".
Fancy name, but he was still a fascist and a traitor to the nation of his birth.

bizadfar · Post 19 Dec 2007, 21:01

manchild wrote:Not every team is as calculated and ruthless and not every team uses team orders to secure championship.

Season 1997: 17 GP races in calendar. Jacques Villeneuve in close battle with Schuey for WDC. Heinz-Harald Frentzen is Villeneuve's teammate - not a second driver.

French GP - Heinz-Harald Frentzen 2nd Jacques Villeneuve 4th
Belgian GP - Heinz-Harald Frentzen 3rd Jacques Villeneuve 5th
Italian GP - Heinz-Harald Frentzen 3rd Jacques Villeneuve 5th
Japan GP - Heinz-Harald Frentzen 2nd Jacques Villeneuve 5th

Sir Frank could have ordered Frentzen to let Villeneuve overtake him but he didn't and that's why Frank Williams is Sir Frank Williams and Jean Todt is just Jean Todt.

If he used team orders Villeneuve would have become champion before last race at Jerez. Think about that. That's sport. What Ferrari does is ruthless and soulless business.

Now look up for Schuey's Ferrari career and find me how many times was his teammate positioned better in a race where they both finished. That's why Ferrari-Schuey titles are just scores with nothing nice to be remembered by.

look at those results, they are not exactly next to eachother on the track are they? So it involves giving up constructors points...

DaveKillens · Post 19 Dec 2007, 21:54

So what? Do you remember the last race of the season, where Massa did an "extra" pit stop, surrendered the lead to Kimi, and also lost a few constructor's points?
Kimi won the title, but Massa gave up too much. Not only a win, but a win at his beloved home track. And the fans... just how much value can you put on having a driver win at his home track? Thousands and thousands of loyal Brazilians put down their hard-earned money to buy a ticket to a race where their driver could not win. he could not win because of ruthless internal Ferrari politics.

manchild · Post 19 Dec 2007, 23:01

bizadfar wrote:look at those results, they are not exactly next to eachother on the track are they? So it involves giving up constructors points...

The last 3 races of 1997 season, Villeneuve needs every point, Williams doesn't. After Luxembourg GP Williams leads in WCC for 26 points over Ferrari with two more races left to go (32 points theoretically possible for Ferrari meaning that in worse scenario Williams would need to score 6 points in those two races to secure WCC).

In the final lap Frentzen is running 2nd, Villeneuve is running 5th. If Frentzen looses two positions and lets Villeneuve overtake him instead of 8 points team would win 5 points which would be 117 points for Williams vs. 100 points for Ferrari and secured WDC for Williams anyway(old point system 10,6,4,3,2,1). Still, they don't use team orders in the penultimate race of the season!

BTW, Villeneuve was disqualified afterwards (sit down and drink some water) for ignoring a yellow flag in practice! How many times have we seen that done in recent years and what driver was disqualified after the race for the offense made during practice?! Hungarian GP 2006, Schuey ignores not yellow but red flag during practice and all he gets is 2 second penalty forcing him to start 12th! Fairness than fairness now. One same pattern.

bizadfar · Post 20 Dec 2007, 07:10

manchild wrote:
bizadfar wrote:look at those results, they are not exactly next to eachother on the track are they? So it involves giving up constructors points...
The last 3 races of 1997 season, Villeneuve needs every point, Williams doesn't. After Luxembourg GP Williams leads in WCC for 26 points over Ferrari with two more races left to go (32 points theoretically possible for Ferrari meaning that in worse scenario Williams would need to score 6 points in those two races to secure WCC).

In the final lap Frentzen is running 2nd, Villeneuve is running 5th. If Frentzen looses two positions and lets Villeneuve overtake him instead of 8 points team would win 5 points which would be 117 points for Williams vs. 100 points for Ferrari and secured WDC for Williams anyway(old point system 10,6,4,3,2,1). Still, they don't use team orders in the penultimate race of the season!

BTW, Villeneuve was disqualified afterwards (sit down and drink some water) for ignoring a yellow flag in practice! How many times have we seen that done in recent years and what driver was disqualified after the race for the offense made during practice?! Hungarian GP 2006, Schuey ignores not yellow but red flag during practice and all he gets is 2 second penalty forcing him to start 12th! Fairness than fairness now. One same pattern.

Ok, point accepted. Sorry

DaveKillens wrote:So what? Do you remember the last race of the season, where Massa did an "extra" pit stop, surrendered the lead to Kimi, and also lost a few constructor's points?
Kimi won the title, but Massa gave up too much. Not only a win, but a win at his beloved home track. And the fans... just how much value can you put on having a driver win at his home track? Thousands and thousands of loyal Brazilians put down their hard-earned money to buy a ticket to a race where their driver could not win. he could not win because of ruthless internal Ferrari politics.

Fully disagree. Remember when they were circling around the track? The Ferraris were sent in the pits to change tyres right? And remember every 2nd or 3rd lap they were coming in to top up? Remember? Kimi was the last one to come in, Massa simply could not stretch it out.

Their driver at least could've tried to get the fastest lap to prove himself, like Kimi did in hungary, Turkey to prove his still there. Massa didn't even do that. His fast in quali, fast when no one around him. But in race mode, Kimi outdid him this year. Also Dave, if you were the head of Ferrari or whatever team that had that situation, you would've not done the same? You are out your mind, and that is the most ridiculous thing I have heard you say. Sport isn't a sanctuary like most people think. Happens all the time in football and motorsports. Our V8 Supercars series for the last few years has gone a bit like that (because at the end of 45 races, they all came down to the wire).