2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[diffuser]

Within 3 years is pretty realistic, or even optimistic i'd say. How many here do seriously consider Mclaren Honda title contenders in 2017?

I'm expecting a year like 2009. 4 different teams to win races and 7 different drivers. I just hope 1 driver doesn't win 6 out of the first 7 races like in 2009. The gap between the first 10 cars was almost always < 1 second.

[godlameroso]

It depends. Imagine if the Honda had a bit wider power band this year, they could have been guaranteed 4th in the constructors, they were very close. The step they'll make from 2016 to 2017 is probably greater than the step they made from 2015->2016. The biggest unknown is the chassis, if I know McLaren they'll either start with a turkey, and make it better steadily, and by the time they get it right it'll be too late. Or they'll start with a monster that only works in a very narrow range of conditions, and they'll crush everyone in 3 or 4 tracks, and be mediocre or borderline podium everywhere else. Or the car will be fast, but the team will make sure that potential is never realized due to tactical errors. One of those or a combination there of, for sure. There's potential there, they've always been able to make a good chassis, Honda have always been able to make a good power unit..eventually. Maybe the final step is for the chassis to learn to speak the power unit's "language" and vice versa.

In other words instead of having a cart or a horse, and worrying about which goes first, you have to look at it as some beautifully grotesque Frankenstein hybrid of a horse/carrige.

It's not enough to have a strong engine with a broad power band, you also need for the downforce to be there, for the drivetrain to distribute the power correctly, for the suspension to keep the wheels planted, and on and on.

If you're going to be predictive, be specific. No glory in predicting all alternatives, or a combination of them.

Whats your motivation for assuming they will make more progress this winter than last winter? Personally I doubt that. Time will tell. Also I challenge your statement that Mclaren always makes good chassis. They haven't really done that for the last ~4 years.

The biggest bottleneck to the Honda engine was the compressor inside the V. By moving it out of the V, and integrating all the upgrades they had planned but unable to introduce for 2016. There should be a nice improvement in peak power, usable power band, and fuel economy. Will it be enough, I don't know.

As for McLaren, they get it right sometimes, they did get a podium in 2014, that year's chassis wasn't terrible, and I think it was more down to poor powertrain integration, than out and out bad chassis. 2015, and 2016 weren't great, but they did make progress even with 2016 being a testing year since after Monaco.

Plus it's been stated that McLaren understood their suspension issue, and given their ability to adapt a chassis I think they'll be alright.

[mrluke]

I didnt see in Abu Dhabi that Honda is on pair whit Renault? What good comes out of the fact that Honda has same or more peak power if overall, on track the Honda is a weaker PU than Renault?

There's a whole thread on it, Brazil provided some pretty good insights, I haven't analysed Abu Dahbi yet.

[Vasconia]

Within 3 years is pretty realistic, or even optimistic i'd say. How many here do seriously consider Mclaren Honda title contenders in 2017?

2018-2019 is more realistic indeed. I cant see McLaren reaching the same performance of Mercedes and Red Bull. I have my doubts with Ferrari but we will see.

[GoranF1]

Within 3 years is pretty realistic, or even optimistic i'd say. How many here do seriously consider Mclaren Honda title contenders in 2017?

2018-2019 is more realistic indeed. I cant see McLaren reaching the same performance of Mercedes and Red Bull. I have my doubts with Ferrari but we will see.

But why do you take anything form 2015-2016 as a reference point?( besides engines)
2016 aero regs are white and 2017 are black....Brawn has been Honda in 2008 and they were what 4-5 team ......in 2009 AUS they were 1 sec faster than anything else.

[PlatinumZealot]

Naturally aspirated k24 running 15:1 compression will never make more than 390ish hp at the wheels. I don't think more is possible, but with boost, it's a game changer. The F series with the Nikasil liners tolerates boost better in stock form. The main drawback is the open deck block in most all Honda engines. Non Nikasil/FRM coated cylinders require sleeves to get reliable power from boost, or conservative settings.

I will try to find the dyno graph for you. And Pm it since they say we are off topic.

[Vasconia]

Within 3 years is pretty realistic, or even optimistic i'd say. How many here do seriously consider Mclaren Honda title contenders in 2017?

2018-2019 is more realistic indeed. I cant see McLaren reaching the same performance of Mercedes and Red Bull. I have my doubts with Ferrari but we will see.

But why do you take anything form 2015-2016 as a reference point?( besides engines)
2016 aero regs are white and 2017 are black....Brawn has been Honda in 2008 and they were what 4-5 team ......in 2009 AUS they were 1 sec faster than anything else.

2009 was an exceptional case helped by certain circunstances(great change of rules+an engineer who has a deeper undestanding of those rules+a "revolutionary" concept which worked+lots of money/resources). I am sure that McLaren will make an important step forward but I dont see them on a better position than the rest.

[Gridlock]

2009 was an exceptional case helped by certain circunstances(great change of rules+an engineer who has a deeper undestanding of those rules+a "revolutionary" concept which worked+lots of money/resources). I am sure that McLaren will make an important step forward but I dont see them on a better position than the rest.

The point is that surprising things can happen with reg changes. By definition surprises are unexpected.

[diffuser]

2009 was an exceptional case helped by certain circunstances(great change of rules+an engineer who has a deeper undestanding of those rules+a "revolutionary" concept which worked+lots of money/resources). I am sure that McLaren will make an important step forward but I dont see them on a better position than the rest.

The point is that surprising things can happen with reg changes. By definition surprises are unexpected.

Agreed.
I think the chassis team is ready, by that I mean they've been there a couple of years. They're settled in. It's their time to shine. They have no excuse why they can't build the very best chassis. You can't say they have to catch up to the top 3, they're all starting from scratch. If they do that, I have no question in my mind that the 2017 Honda PU will be able to do, at the very least, what the Renault did for RBR last year.

[Andres125sx]

2018-2019 is more realistic indeed. I cant see McLaren reaching the same performance of Mercedes and Red Bull. I have my doubts with Ferrari but we will see.

But why do you take anything form 2015-2016 as a reference point?( besides engines)
2016 aero regs are white and 2017 are black....Brawn has been Honda in 2008 and they were what 4-5 team ......in 2009 AUS they were 1 sec faster than anything else.

2009 was an exceptional case helped by certain circunstances(great change of rules+an engineer who has a deeper undestanding of those rules+a "revolutionary" concept which worked+lots of money/resources). I am sure that McLaren will make an important step forward but I dont see them on a better position than the rest.

I do. They´re the only big team who didn´t fight for anything in 2016 so they should be the first to focus on 2017 car. That should give them an edge.

But only time will tell if that edge was enough to return to the fight for victories or even titles (very unlikely), or only to catch up their more experienced rivals

[Vasconia]

2009 was an exceptional case helped by certain circunstances(great change of rules+an engineer who has a deeper undestanding of those rules+a "revolutionary" concept which worked+lots of money/resources). I am sure that McLaren will make an important step forward but I dont see them on a better position than the rest.

The point is that surprising things can happen with reg changes. By definition surprises are unexpected.

Indeed, surprises can always happen and even more with a big change like the one we will have in 2017. I was just pointing out that both years(2009/2017) and Brawn/McLaren cannot be compared because there were diffferent circustances. Anyway, those circustances were unknown at the begining of that season so McLaren could suprise us, and I hope they do. All the people expect a Mercedes/RB battle but I hope McLaren and Ferrari can be in the mix too.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Link to the full article -> 2017 Technical Lowdown, by McLaren Technical Director Tim Goss

[ME4ME]

I do. They´re the only big team who didn´t fight for anything in 2016 so they should be the first to focus on 2017 car. That should give them an edge.

But only time will tell if that edge was enough to return to the fight for victories or even titles (very unlikely), or only to catch up their more experienced rivals

Mclaren had to fight in order to step up in the constructors championship. Surely they couldn't afford to only focus on 2017. It's very evident from all the upgrades they brought to the track that they didn't give up on 2016 all together.

Mercedes on the other hand brought some upgrades early in the season (China comes to mind) and had by then established their domination. They will have switched all resources towards 2017 by a very early stage. The same goes for Red Bull, they didn't alter their aero package throughout the year, since their basic package was solid. It seems all they did was develop the suspension system, as well as taking advantage of the increasingly powerful Renault PU.

I think it's fair to say that both Mercedes and Red Bull go into 2017 more ready and confident than Mclaren. Ferrari might not, since they seemed to resurrect their 2016 efforts late in the season (Japan), possibly taking away some wind tunnel time from the 2017 project.

[mrluke]

Mclaren were also the only big team not to test the 2017 tyres.

[damager21]

I think the engine and aero rule change this season will also be a big opportunity for McLaren early on. Same obviously holds true for other teams too but if McLaren can come up with some innovation (Double diffuser in 2009) early ON which gives them an advantage on the chassis side, we can still see some surprises in performance.

Time and again we have seen how aero changes can shake up things quite a bit. So while Honda may continue to play catch up to Mercedes in 2017, McLaren may still see opportunities to beat other top teams and be on the podium early on. While its highly unlikely that Red Bull will botch up on chassis front, Ferrari could be a bit vulnerable in this department and this is exactly what McLaren must try and exploit.