Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[ncassi22]

An illustration of some things I posted. Replace one or two of the counterweights with gears and use them to drive the cam from the centre of the v-bank, as well as the mgu-k or water/oil pump out the side of the block. This one also only drives the outer cams from the crank. The idea is to squeeze as much of the water plumbing, compressor and boost pipes inside of the mandated 'rules box', allowing for a narrower chassis or the larger fuel tank and a tub mounted water cooler. Ps: The clutch actually does not have to fall inside the box; it can be gearbox mounted if you want. Admittedly this whole set-up makes the car a bit like Kim K

[godlameroso]

Do the regulations allow this? I thought there is no welds or attachments? That you can only gear or connect stuff to the ends of the crankshaft. I could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted it.

[ncassi22]

Do the regulations allow this? I thought there is no welds or attachments? That you can only gear or connect stuff to the ends of the crankshaft. I could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted it.

Many of the motorcycle cranks output to the gearbox this way. You don't need to weld it as it's directly machined into the throw. I posted a pic of the Yamaha crank a few pages back. You'd have to machine the camshaft gears too though. Although you could forgo the centre gears and run the 'balance gears' on the opposite end as is in the current engines (Slightly less space though.)

This is the only other thing I found regarding driving pumps etc.

5.13 Engine ancillaries :
All coolant pumps, oil pumps, scavenge pumps, oil/air separators, hydraulic pumps and fuel
pumps delivering more than 10bar must be mechanically driven directly from the engine
and/or MGU-K with a fixed speed ratio.

[Craigy]

http://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/201 ... b45c1.html

It's just a different spin of this "article".

Yeah nah I call bull hey. So close to testing I'm sure Mclaren could use the Milton Keynes facility to verify wiring changes. An unless they used some of Ron's spare hares to wire it up, they must have something that works otherwise how'd they start up the motor? Although maybe that's why it sounds like its burping

Honda MK is deserted at the moment.

[ncassi22]

http://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/201 ... b45c1.html

It's just a different spin of this "article".

Yeah nah I call bull hey. So close to testing I'm sure Mclaren could use the Milton Keynes facility to verify wiring changes. An unless they used some of Ron's spare hares to wire it up, they must have something that works otherwise how'd they start up the motor? Although maybe that's why it sounds like its burping

Honda MK is deserted at the moment.

Ron's hair it is then.

[godlameroso]

Do the regulations allow this? I thought there is no welds or attachments? That you can only gear or connect stuff to the ends of the crankshaft. I could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted it.

Many of the motorcycle cranks output to the gearbox this way. You don't need to weld it as it's directly machined into the throw. I posted a pic of the Yamaha crank a few pages back. You'd have to machine the camshaft gears too though. Although you could forgo the centre gears and run the 'balance gears' on the opposite end as is in the current engines (Slightly less space though.)

This is the only other thing I found regarding driving pumps etc.

5.13 Engine ancillaries :
All coolant pumps, oil pumps, scavenge pumps, oil/air separators, hydraulic pumps and fuel
pumps delivering more than 10bar must be mechanically driven directly from the engine
and/or MGU-K with a fixed speed ratio.

Yes you are correct, it simply says no welds in between the front and rear main bearings, it doesn't say anything about attachments, just limits the materials, and dimensions.

[ncassi22]

Do the regulations allow this? I thought there is no welds or attachments? That you can only gear or connect stuff to the ends of the crankshaft. I could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted it.

Many of the motorcycle cranks output to the gearbox this way. You don't need to weld it as it's directly machined into the throw. I posted a pic of the Yamaha crank a few pages back. You'd have to machine the camshaft gears too though. Although you could forgo the centre gears and run the 'balance gears' on the opposite end as is in the current engines (Slightly less space though.)

This is the only other thing I found regarding driving pumps etc.

5.13 Engine ancillaries :
All coolant pumps, oil pumps, scavenge pumps, oil/air separators, hydraulic pumps and fuel
pumps delivering more than 10bar must be mechanically driven directly from the engine
and/or MGU-K with a fixed speed ratio.

Yes you are correct, it simply says no welds in between the front and rear main bearings, it doesn't say anything about attachments, just limits the materials, and dimensions.

Another way of attaching the cam gear - It actually slips over the cam and attaches via bolts! Engineers come up with the coolest solutions.

[wuzak]

Many of the motorcycle cranks output to the gearbox this way. You don't need to weld it as it's directly machined into the throw. I posted a pic of the Yamaha crank a few pages back. You'd have to machine the camshaft gears too though. Although you could forgo the centre gears and run the 'balance gears' on the opposite end as is in the current engines (Slightly less space though.)

This is the only other thing I found regarding driving pumps etc.

5.13 Engine ancillaries :
All coolant pumps, oil pumps, scavenge pumps, oil/air separators, hydraulic pumps and fuel
pumps delivering more than 10bar must be mechanically driven directly from the engine
and/or MGU-K with a fixed speed ratio.

Yes you are correct, it simply says no welds in between the front and rear main bearings, it doesn't say anything about attachments, just limits the materials, and dimensions.

Another way of attaching the cam gear - It actually slips over the cam and attaches via bolts! Engineers come up with the coolest solutions.

http://www.j-mart.biz/j-parts/images/yo ... 1-s202.jpg

Interestingly a number of 4 cylinder production motorcycle engines had their cam drive in the middle of the crankshaft. But they found that the crank and block could be shorter if it was moved to the end.

[gruntguru]

conventionally viewed, the above statement 'only one firing order is possible' is surely wrong ?

and this 'end-to-end' 1 2 3 bank order seems reminiscent of textbook examples of disadvantage to crankshaft design
as possibly/likely to increase the torsional vibration of the crankshaft and so reduce its life

An even-firing three cylinder in-line can only fire end to end and the banks of an F1 engine are even-fire to maintain separation of blowdown pulses without ridiculously complex headers.

anyway different firing orders must be possible one 'obvious' order is 1 6 5 4 3 2 - (in the terminology as above - 1a 3b 3a 2b 2a 1b) as used by Buick in many millions of (the first mass-produced 90 deg 3 simple crankpin) V6s similar millions of engines by the PRV combine used 1 6 3 5 2 4 - and the 65 deg Fiat Dino used 1 4 2 5 3 6 NB it might appear that Nissan etc use a 1 2 3 4 5 6 firing order (and presumably these are not 3 simple crankpin engines) official Nissan info attributes firing order enquiry as plug lead identification/positioning (as mechanics needs to know) - not firing order and redundant spark ignition conceals the actual firing order with ambiguity (2 cyls simultaneously sparked, which 1 is firing ?) anyone got the firing order for the F1 turbos of TAG Porsche, Honda, Renault etc ?

There are only two possible firing orders (as observed in my second post). All the others are variations resulting from different choices for cylinder numbering and rotation.

one reason for an actual 1 2 3 bank order might seem to be possibly better equalisation of charge induction from the plenum airbox are there examples where some crankshaft design-disadvantageous but induction design-advantageous firing order has been used ?

Or blowdown energy collection?

[wuzak]

An even-firing three cylinder in-line can only fire end to end and the banks of an F1 engine are even-fire to maintain separation of blowdown pulses without ridiculously complex headers.

Looking at just one bank of three cylinders, would this take place over 2 revolutions, as per a normal 3 cylinder engine?

Whereas the theoretical 1-2-3-4-5-6 firing order would have one bank fire in 1 revolution and the other bank fire in the second revolution.

[ncassi22]

Interestingly a number of 4 cylinder production motorcycle engines had their cam drive in the middle of the crankshaft. But they found that the crank and block could be shorter if it was moved to the end.

I think that was because they ran it between cylinders though. Ala Honda RC30. In any case I embarrassingly forgot the clutch needs to clutch against something. So there might as well be a flywheel gear between the last main and the clutch driving the outer cam. The gear placement further inwards on the cam was to drive the inside cam off the outer one. The idea being to give more space for the turbine and piping in the area the inner cam gear would normally be. Not ideal for tortional vibration though.

[wuzak]

Interestingly a number of 4 cylinder production motorcycle engines had their cam drive in the middle of the crankshaft. But they found that the crank and block could be shorter if it was moved to the end.

I think that was because they ran it between cylinders though. Ala Honda RC30. In any case I embarrassingly forgot the clutch needs to clutch against something. So there might as well be a flywheel gear between the last main and the clutch driving the outer cam. The gear placement further inwards on the cam was to drive the inside cam off the outer one. The idea being to give more space for the turbine and piping in the area the inner cam gear would normally be. Not ideal for tortional vibration though.

Why have you got a clutch driving the outer cam?

I can't see the advantage in the system you've drawn. By having the cam drive in the vee you are, potentially, taking up space where you would want the MGUH to sit - ie as low as possible.

Also, not sure that you can put gears inside the crankcase like that without allowing a bit more room between it and the crank pin.

[roon]

conventionally viewed, the above statement 'only one firing order is possible' is surely wrong ?

and this 'end-to-end' 1 2 3 bank order seems reminiscent of textbook examples of disadvantage to crankshaft design
as possibly/likely to increase the torsional vibration of the crankshaft and so reduce its life

An even-firing three cylinder in-line can only fire end to end and the banks of an F1 engine are even-fire to maintain separation of blowdown pulses without ridiculously complex headers.

anyway different firing orders must be possible one 'obvious' order is 1 6 5 4 3 2 - (in the terminology as above - 1a 3b 3a 2b 2a 1b) as used by Buick in many millions of (the first mass-produced 90 deg 3 simple crankpin) V6s similar millions of engines by the PRV combine used 1 6 3 5 2 4 - and the 65 deg Fiat Dino used 1 4 2 5 3 6 NB it might appear that Nissan etc use a 1 2 3 4 5 6 firing order (and presumably these are not 3 simple crankpin engines) official Nissan info attributes firing order enquiry as plug lead identification/positioning (as mechanics needs to know) - not firing order and redundant spark ignition conceals the actual firing order with ambiguity (2 cyls simultaneously sparked, which 1 is firing ?) anyone got the firing order for the F1 turbos of TAG Porsche, Honda, Renault etc ?

There are only two possible firing orders (as observed in my second post). All the others are variations resulting from different choices for cylinder numbering and rotation.

one reason for an actual 1 2 3 bank order might seem to be possibly better equalisation of charge induction from the plenum airbox are there examples where some crankshaft design-disadvantageous but induction design-advantageous firing order has been used ?

Or blowdown energy collection?

A crankshaft with all the throws aligned would provide an effective V-twin with six cylinders. If all three cylinders in a bank blowdown at once then a return to compact log manifolds may be possible. The pulses would be stacked up upon each other in the manifold, end-to-end, providing a longer, perhaps hotter, impulse to the turbine.

[godlameroso]

How much energy is transferred to the turbine via gas kinematics, and how much is it due to the difference in pressure pre and post turbine?

[gruntguru]

How much energy is transferred to the turbine via gas kinematics, and how much is it due to the difference in pressure pre and post turbine?

Good question. If you combine more than 3 even-fire cylinders or exhaust into a common plenum pre-turbine, blowdown energy is lost ie zero blowdown energy and 100% reaction energy.

With careful design to maximise blowdown energy recovery, the Wright Turbo-compound - recovering blowdown energy only (no increase in back pressure) was able to recover an additional 14% on top of crankshaft power at cruise and 24% at take off. (before gear losses). This represents the other end of the scale - 100% blowdown and 0% reaction energy.